Are superhero movies finally becoming less profitable among audiences?

[THG]

Apparently the newest Ant Man and Shazam movies were pretty massive flops. I didn't even realize that those movies had been released, ngl.

This also is indicative of a greater post pandemic trend however- even in 2022, most of those movies underperformed pre-pandemic margins by a lot for that genre, which would be to easily crack a billion (see: 2018 and 2019). And when Top Gun, John Wick, and Avatar are smash hits in the box office but Ant Man is a dismal flop, I really do think that Marvel (and to a lesser extent DC)'s chokehold over the box office is coming to a slow end.

Don't get me wrong- people will still watch Spiderman and Batman movies, but they've always made massive amounts of money, even before the oversaturation of the genre (see: 2002, 2004, 2005, 2007, and 2008). I however don't think that low effort crap like Ant Man or Thor will be able to rake in an easy billion just because they're Marvel properties anymore.

May we be able to see the return of some swords and sandals + westerns now?

[THG]

MCU largely jumped the shark following Avengers: Endgame, with maybe the notable exception of the Spider-Man films.

I liked No Way Home at the time, but in hindsight, it was because that movie was the first true post-COVID box office hit (I like cinemas and don't like the concept of movies released solely on streaming services) and one of the first times I'd been to the theater since March of 2020. Also, my massive nostalgia for the Maguire/Raimi trilogy in particular was a huge bonus.

Looking back, that movie was probably just okay, which by MCU/DCEU standards is a masterpiece. Never saw its predecessor.

[THG]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

[THG]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

Stop being a Marvel apologist.

Lol. I admit, while I don't hate that first Iron Man movie, I can't bring myself to watch it these days. It's become so tainted that I can't get anything out of it anymore.

I don't have a problem with it personally, but its impact on American culture has been so terrible that it isn't worth it. There are other good movies that have resulted in terrible things (Star Wars is a great example), but Iron Man ain't good enough in its own right to have been worth all that came later.

This is a fair point. That movie is okay as a standalone film, but my nostalgia blinds me to its horrible cultural impact.

The first two Raimi Spider Man movies + The Dark Knight are better individually but also don’t have anywhere near the same levels of negative cultural impact.

[THG]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

Stop being a Marvel apologist.

Lol. I admit, while I don't hate that first Iron Man movie, I can't bring myself to watch it these days. It's become so tainted that I can't get anything out of it anymore.

I don't have a problem with it personally, but its impact on American culture has been so terrible that it isn't worth it. There are other good movies that have resulted in terrible things (Star Wars is a great example), but Iron Man ain't good enough in its own right to have been worth all that came later.

This is a fair point. That movie is okay as a standalone film, but my nostalgia blinds me to its horrible cultural impact.

The first two Raimi Spider Man movies + The Dark Knight are better individually but also don’t have anywhere near the same levels of negative cultural impact.

The Incredibles is the only truly great superhero movie. Prove me wrong.

Are we talking about the first one? That was obviously pretty good too, though I'm not a fan of the sequel at all. Regardless, the point I was making is that TDK/Raimi Spider Man (and you can add The Incredibles on here too) didn't have the same level of negative cultural impact on cinema as Iron Man 1 accidently did.

I know that TDK inspired some really crappy DCEU movies, but even though those movies sucked, they didn't singlehandedly place a chokehold over 15+ years worth of cinema. And the general trend of copying the "dark and Nolany" theme didn't ruin cinema anywhere near as much as the "quippy" Marvelization of it did.

And I don't think anyone can blame Raimi Spider-Man for the MCU. If anything, Spider Man 3 getting poor critical reviews at the time and causing the cancelation of SM4 is probably a catalyst to the MCU being formed.

[THG]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Few considered Sergio Leone or John Wayne to be mediocre back in the day. And I don’t think that 2001: A Space Odyssey, Close Encounters, The Terminator, Alien, the original Predator, or even the original Star Wars (as overrated as that film is) were ever on the same level as the MCU.

And every film I named above was actually original. You know, as silly as something as the original Space Jam was (not the LeBeron one, the Jordan one from the 1990’s), atleast it was an original idea, albeit with existing characters and real life figures. That alone makes it better than most blockbusters released today. Such a movie would never be made today.

The worst thing about cinema since the 2010’s is the total lack of originality. Even the 2000’s had a great amount of original movies. But now? People are clamoring to watch Avatar and Top Gun sequels, that’s how un-original and derivative cinema is nowadays.

[THG]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Few considered Sergio Leone or John Wayne to be mediocre back in the day. And I don’t think that 2001: A Space Odyssey, Close Encounters, The Terminator, Alien, the original Predator, or even the original Star Wars (as overrated as that film is) were ever on the same level as the MCU.

And every film I named above was actually original. You know, as silly as something as the original Space Jam was (not the LeBeron one, the Jordan one from the 1990’s), atleast it was an original idea, albeit with existing characters and real life figures. That alone makes it better than most blockbusters released today. Such a movie would never be made today.

The worst thing about cinema since the 2010’s is the total lack of originality. Even the 2000’s had a great amount of original movies. But now? People are clamoring to watch Avatar and Top Gun sequels, that’s how un-original and derivative cinema is nowadays.

Not every movie needs to be original anyways.

I agree. The problem is that almost no movies are original nowadays, particularly big blockbusters. And I think that’s a shame.

[THG]

Dule, out of curiosity, do you think the declining originality in movies has anything to do with growing concentration in the entertainment industry? I don't have data to back it up nor do I even know how one would go about proving it, but it certainly seems relevant in that context, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that given your political views otherwise.

 Studios will not invest that much money into something that doesn't have a preestablished market that they can count on, which is how we get soft reboots like Jurassic World and The Force Awakens all the time. Literally the only exception is Avatar, which only became possible because of one egomaniac multimillionaire's vision.

I'd argue that the last fully original big budget blockbuster I can think off the top of my head was Nolan's Inception. It's not even my favorite Nolan movie (let alone the Kubrickian masterpiece some make it out to be, which it isn't), but one thing I'll never hold against it is that it was incredibly original for the time, and the concepts behind it do not derive off anything else.

Avatar is a total Dances with Wolves/Pocahontas ripoff, btw.

[THG]

Dule, out of curiosity, do you think the declining originality in movies has anything to do with growing concentration in the entertainment industry? I don't have data to back it up nor do I even know how one would go about proving it, but it certainly seems relevant in that context, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that given your political views otherwise.

 Studios will not invest that much money into something that doesn't have a preestablished market that they can count on, which is how we get soft reboots like Jurassic World and The Force Awakens all the time. Literally the only exception is Avatar, which only became possible because of one egomaniac multimillionaire's vision.

I'd argue that the last fully original big budget blockbuster I can think off the top of my head was Nolan's Inception. It's not even my favorite Nolan movie (let alone the Kubrickian masterpiece some make it out to be, which it isn't), but one thing I'll never hold against it is that it was incredibly original for the time, and the concepts behind it do not derive off anything else.

Avatar is a total Dances with Wolves/Pocahontas ripoff, btw.

That's fair. I generally think Nolan is extremely overrated, but Inception was a decent film (and pretty spectacular visually and conceptually). Tenet and Interstellar were also original, but definitely not on the same level of success.

Avatar is in a weird category of being both an original film and extremely unoriginal at the same time.

I like a good amount of Nolan's movies (off the top of my head, Memento, TDK, The Prestige, even Dunkirk and Batman Begins are decent), but I never got into Inception the same way I got into something like The Prestige (underrated movie if I ever saw one). The characters in The Prestige were more captivating and well written, whereas I the characters in Inception felt one-dimensional to me. Interstellar was just too bloated and silly (the McGuffin plot device was laughably ridiculous). I never saw Tenet.

Avatar is more original than the MCU, but it's still basically Pocahontas in space. Back when the first Avatar was released, many lambasted it for being unoriginal in that regard, so if people now hold it up as an example of originality, cinema is doomed.