Resist The Authoritarian Response To The Coronavirus

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

"Science over fiction" is going to be the doom of this country if the Democratic Party continues to insist those are opposites.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

... It's amazing to me that so many people who are clear eyed about Donald Trump's authoritarian nature are suddenly clamoring for him to take the reigns and lock us all down.  He won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him, people.  What have we learned in the last three years?

Are you listening to yourself?
It's the doctors, scientists and health specialists that are proposing policies of "locking us all down."
And remember, it's just not donald trump that is taking extreme measures to control the spread of this pandemic. It's governors of states and mayors of cities (of both parties). It's also governments and heads-of-state of most of the other world nations. This isnt some world-wide conspiracy of the nation's leaders to grab somekind of power from the people (and not give it back).

I mean, what do you mean when you say "(trump) won't necessarily give up whatever power you give him." Define exactly what "power" he wont return to us. The power not to go to bars and restaurants any more after this is all over? Cant go to a baseball game, or Broadway musical any more?
Tell me EXACTLY what you fear here; be specific.
Because all this "authoritarian" talk is extreme nonsense.

I'm sorry that you don't think the ability to leave your house and partake in those activities you listed matters.  Many other people in this country would disagree.  You can't give a time period for the this is "all over", of course.  6 months from now?  12 months from now?  When tens of thousands of companies have liquidated because no economic activity is occuring?  The concern of doctors and scientists right now is singularly focused on saving the elderly, admirable.  We elect public officials to balance many competing interests and act in the best interests of everyone.

What he's asking you is this: WHY would the government want to control you in this way? Governments only want to control people if there's a BENEFIT for them in doing so. Kerping you loked in your house crashes the economy and doesn't help them acheive any hypothetical sinister goal. There's no benefit.

There are multiple things going on here.  We just had a primary election illegally cancelled tonight because of virus concerns.  Whatever the motives were, bad actors (Trump or other) can jump on the mass hysteria and use these kinds of precendents for their own gain.  You'd better hope to God there's not some kind of natural disaster/pandemic in November.  Trump may try to postpone or cancel the election.  And what will you say, thats fine?

Second, the "doctors, scientists and health specialists" he referenced calling for total lockdowns of the country are not concerned about our civil liberties.  They are also not concerned about the economic fallout.  They are singularly focused stopping the virus.  I'll ask it again.  What's an acceptable amount of time to shelter in place.  What if they say we need to do it for 6 months?  12 months? 18 months? We have posters on here and people in the media implying just that, and how dare anyone question it.  At some point, you don't just go, "BUT THE DOCTORS SAID WE HAD TO DO IT".  This is why our public officials need to balance multiple interests.  They don't just blindly follow one piece of advice.

Pelosi and the Supreme Court will not allow Trump to cancel the election. Delay the election slightly? If the circumstances actually call for that and Pelosi and Supreme Court agree, then sure why not.

We will lockdown for 18 months if necessary, and as soon as we realize that tjat is the reality, we'll have people coming up with new strategies to help the economy and social lives improve. Skype may become WAY more popular. Some sportd MAY start up again like MMA with empty crowds but broadcast to TV watchers. Online casinos will get more popular. Some new animated movies might get green-lit where voice actors and animators can self-isolate while they make the movie, and they can go straight to VOD or Netflix. We'll find a way.

No we will not be locking down for 18 months and anyone that thinks the vast majority of Americans can handle that is insane.

We'll just have to see how Americans feel when the hospitals and funeral homes totally exceed capacity and the corpses start rotting in piles in your local communities.

Largely won't care even a little bit. Preferable to any sort of extended lockdown longer than 48 hours or so. I would abandon city living once and for all if this became the alternative.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

These are the types of enlightened individuals who would claim “FDR is a fascist” or “Lincoln is destroying our Democracy”.
This is a war, full stop.
Certain liberties need to be suspended.

I've had it with your insane Chickenschit Little dreck. Onto ignore you go and bad riddance.

Bodies are piling up in Northern Italy as we speak, hospitals are overwhelmed to the brink, and thousands are dying in a few days!!!
You are the real schithead (watch this post get deleted for using the exact same word as you) if you think this isnt a national emergency. America isn’t special, we will all suffer greatly from this apathy and “muh freedom even when people are dying”.

Lol.

Over 1,500 Americans die every day of heart disease.  
Over 1,500 Americans die every day of cancer.

Also, just to clarify your misinformation: 2,503 have died in Italy from the virus since the first confirmed case on January 31, 2020.  Please stop trying rile people up by posting misinformation.

My dude cancer and heart disease are (typically) long-term conditions. Heart disease in particular is something that takes years (including years of various lifestyle conditions) to emerge.

The median COVID death takes about a month. This is a totally nonsensical comparison.

My biggest problem is that these are presented as fatalistic outcomes for America where no measure is too crazy to enact when we seem to be on an okay path. I think every one of these deaths will be sadder than ordinary for the families (being unable to give an appropriate goodbye and all) and it is already devastating to watch it play out. I would hope that everyone who can is taking the appropriate precautions. I am showering two or three times a day and washing my hands every hour despite rarely coming into contact with anyone.  I hope everyone who can is taking advantage of social distancing. But we have a good handful of high-anxiety people advocating for some truly scary measures who are agitated that not everyone is as hysterical as they are when strong measures have been taken. I have finally come to the conclusion that there is no reassuring them that we can do enough through normal means to minimize the impact.

I fully expect to lose someone close to me during this given the impacted region, and I expect it to be an extremely sad event. But I'm not looking forward to being "owned" by the hysterics for not doing enough.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I'll add, Andrew Cuomo is an example of someone doing a great job and taking a very sane, level-headed approach to the situation, more than just about anyone in elective office. It may not be ideal results, but he has struck a good balance in a high-risk area.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

It is definitely, definitely not going to be constitutional to forcibly close a church.  Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of churches have already gone to virtual services voluntarily.

It is constitutional to make content-neutral time/place/manner regulations of first amendment activity.

You are right it would not be constitutional to simply ban church services.

However, it would be entirely constitutional to regulate the sizes of meetings, for example to ban meetings of greater than 50 people (or 20 or 5 people, or perhaps even of 2 people), as is currently occurring in many jurisdictions. This would include church services, but would not apply specifically to church services. It also does not in any way prevent churches from holding online meetings, and there is no particular intent to prevent religious practice or to single out/target religion for some sort of suppression.

Mind you, it wouldn't necessarily be constitutional to ban meetings with a certain # of people if there were no legitimate government purpose/interest for doing so. But in this case, there is a legitimate public interest - namely public health - for doing so.

On the other hand, suppose that the government wanted to ban all online meetings (including online church services). In this case, I don't think there would even be a rational basis for doing so on the basis of public health, so this would not be constitutional.

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.

I really thought there was no ideology more detestable than libertarianism, but boy, have I been proven wrong.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

You think 75 million people are going to die from this?  That's well above even the highest guesses from paranoid people isn't it?

I'm certain he means 75,000 UK civilian deaths, which is on the extreme edge of comparable except on a population about one-tenth the size where everyone was an active target.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

Please PLEASE wear a tri-corner hat and period clothing, Sprouts

I am nothing if not fashionable!

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

- Is anybody in this thread actually going to bat for the CA bans? Even in most of these cases (outside of SF) the "shutdown" still allows people to go outside.

I don't think anyone is going to bat for looser restrictions (except perhaps Mr. R when it comes to non-urban Virginia)! Everyone is at least satisfied with the status quo being used in most of the US, it's just that some people think we need significantly more including at least San Francisco measures.

- People who are downplaying the virus because so few people are infected right now... do you realize how exponential growth works? Like, at all? You are aware that we're in the early stages of infection and testing, and that if trends continue, the number of infected people and deaths will get much larger, right?

I don't think anyone is downplaying it based on the current numbers. We are downplaying it on the quote of 10,000 dead based on the current measures. I'll even say 10-40k is a range that would be relatively harmless and go unnoticed (for the US alone). This is not based on the 100 we have already lost, we are indeed forecasting exponentially. On the other hand, you have fools up-playing it by saying the number of dead will be 25% of World War II (i.e., nearly 20 million dead bodies - I won't quote him on 50%) if we fail to make drastic changes and copy the France/Italy model. I would wager half my worth that we are a heck of a lot closer to accurately estimating the impact.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

That's the final straw. You have finally convinced me to go out to some local touristy place this weekend before my liberties are stolen from me. Perhaps Valley Forge, the site where freedom was created.

You are such a troll.
Can you take this matter seriously for once.

Tonight I confirmed that I am taking this about as seriously as anyone in the country. I've been locked in my house for four consecutive days afraid to so much as touch an elevator button. So long without fresh air or legitimate sunlight really caused a depressing mood to settle in. So this evening I dared to walk outside for the first time, and what do you know? The streets are at least 60-80 percent of their normal capacity depending on where exactly you look (more congregation on the trails and parks). People may not be coming into the city from the suburbs for work, but people are certainly continuing on their normal routine without any interruption.

I think I'll feel safer after a 40 minute drive up into a more nature-oriented place.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.
...

Does this sound like a serious comment of yours?
You describe your commitment to your religion, and then end it by saying that you may need to possibly shoot people.
WTF is that? What level of morality is in your soul?
I didnt even know you were religious. Is this another (poor) troll attempt from you?
And if you are religious (Christian I assume), shame on you for wanting to "exercise your other rights," just because you cant go to mass.

I have never missed mass and never intend to. No one will infringe on that right. It seems the churches are closed up and down the east coast. Standing outside and streaming it is.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

No one will EVER prevent me from attending mass obligations for any reason. If Pennsylvania instituted this, I will flee to New Jersey or Virginia. If all churches complied and locked their doors, I will livestream from outside the church. If anyone tried to stop me and others from fulfilling that obligation as best I can, I will have to start exercising my other rights.
...

Does this sound like a serious comment of yours?
You describe your commitment to your religion, and then end it by saying that you may need to possibly shoot people.
WTF is that? What level of morality is in your soul?
I didnt even know you were religious. Is this another (poor) troll attempt from you?
And if you are religious (Christian I assume), shame on you for wanting to "exercise your other rights," just because you cant go to mass.

I have never missed mass and never intend to. No one will infringe on that right. It seems the churches are closed up and down the east coast. Standing outside and streaming it is.

I am ashamed that at one point we ever supported the same candidate...

Seriously,
THINK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.
This isn’t about you, this is about American lives, and the complete collapse of our healthcare system. Learn to compromise, and stop with the spoiled attitude in times of tragedy.

I am harming nobody by standing outside a church building one and a half blocks from my home in order to honor the Lord in open air. I have been far more considerate about the impacts of this disease than 90% of Americans who are continuing about their business as usual all up in each other's faces on the sidewalk. I do not believe in compromise but unflinchingly following absolute moral directives. I will not let your completely baseless teenage paranoia dictate my life when I am more considerate than everyone around me.

In case you haven't noticed, we are living in perpetual tragedy even in the greatest time of human history in the best country in the world. And this will barely register amongst some of the worst domestic tragedies in my lifetime. [For Italy and Iran, I am certain it will be one of the most devastating events of the past century due to unfortunate circumstances, but that is besides the point. It could have been for us too, but we have better demographics/family structures, resources, and to an extent, response.]

Speaking of "tragedies" - I am reminded of the classic George Costanza quote:
"51 people?! That's it?! I thought it was like a thousand!...That's no tragedy! How many people do you lose from a normal [virus] - 30? 40?" (You can multiply both those numbers by 500 for this exercise.) THIS IS NOT THE BLACK PLAGUE

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Speaking of "tragedies" - I am reminded of the classic George Costanza quote:
"51 people?! That's it?! I thought it was like a thousand!...That's no tragedy!" [You can multiply both those numbers by 500 for this exercise.] THIS IS NOT THE BLACK PLAGUE

If you think only 25 or 26 thousand will be the death toll in America, you're living in a fantasy land.

You're really digging your heels on 25 million, aren't you? I'll gladly have a signature/avatar wager over this. I'd say 250k looks like the obvious break-even point between our two projections but I'll even give you 150k. Anything less in the US and I win (and so does America). Take it or leave it.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Speaking of "tragedies" - I am reminded of the classic George Costanza quote:
"51 people?! That's it?! I thought it was like a thousand!...That's no tragedy!" [You can multiply both those numbers by 500 for this exercise.] THIS IS NOT THE BLACK PLAGUE

If you think only 25 or 26 thousand will be the death toll in America, you're living in a fantasy land.

You're really digging your heels on 25 million, aren't you? I'll gladly have a signature/avatar wager over this. I'd say 250k looks like the obvious break-even point between our two projections but I'll even give you 150k. Anything less in the US and I win (and so does America). Take it or leave it.

I don't like using an image host, no avatar bets. Signature bet that results in two full months of signature, 150k USA deaths between now and July 1st 2021 from either coronavirus or claimed by MULTIPLE reasonably credible news sources to be DIRECTLY caused by COVID-19 overpowering the hospitals.

I really hope you win. Deal?

Deal. I will freely admit if I am wrong. I really just don't see it happening.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

Let’s be honest here, a large number of the “anti-authoritarian” posters who are against these lockdown measures seem more concerned about inconveniences to their own lives as opposed to actual authoritarianism. That isn’t everyone, but some posters definitely seem to be more concerned about themselves than, well, authoritarianism.

can you point one out?

I'm sure they would consider that person to be me since I am using examples of basics freedoms from my own life despite being quite authoritarian myself. What they repeatedly fail to acknowledge is that I am practicing social distancing and maximum hygiene to a rather extreme degree already (unlike anyone else in my community) because I am quite panicked about the exponential growth. I don't intend to make contact with anybody! I have generally refused to leave my house except when my own health/life calls me to go within a one mile radius. I have cancelled two trips. I know I can't see anyone in my family for at least a couple months and likely more because my parents are the sole caretakers for their parents (plus a great aunt who lost her visiting nurse for this crisis). I have ten relatives in their 80s that I see with regularity based in New York City of all places, and I am certain I will never get to say goodbye to multiple - not to mention their children with compromised immune systems.

They act as if I am a careless zoomer on spring break because they can't handle even the tiniest bit of disagreement.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sf-police-issue-first-citation-for-violating-stay-at-home-order-to-abortion-protester/?fbclid=IwAR0ArKzlS5lYtEYv_1ydGf4iWITGMXlrU9SFUBgYJFG_Ot9p2yN6gBNID5M
Seems weird the First citation was for an abortion protestor, Suspicious at the least and could show abuse of the order to go against certain types of speech, although not certain.

We had Bernie Sanders protesters driving around City Hall repeatedly last week and blasting their horns. Didn't see anything happen to them for failing to Stay at Home.

(They were issued moving violations for intentionally blocking the roadway. But nothing to do with the SaH order while they were hanging out their cars.)

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sf-police-issue-first-citation-for-violating-stay-at-home-order-to-abortion-protester/?fbclid=IwAR0ArKzlS5lYtEYv_1ydGf4iWITGMXlrU9SFUBgYJFG_Ot9p2yN6gBNID5M
Seems weird the First citation was for an abortion protestor, Suspicious at the least and could show abuse of the order to go against certain types of speech, although not certain.

We had Bernie Sanders protesters driving around City Hall repeatedly last week and blasting their horns. Didn't see anything happen to them for failing to Stay at Home.

(They were issued moving violations for intentionally blocking the roadway. But nothing to do with the SaH order while they were hanging out their cars.)

The mayor didn't announce prosecution for further violations of the stay-away order, after one warning, until Friday. Since you said this occurred last week, presumably it was prior to Friday, or if on Friday constituted their one warning (just like this protester received).

Still, I may be pro-choice, but I'm also a big believer in civil rights and the existence of selective prosecution, even buy left-wing governments. Reading this story it smells like a very fishy prosecution.

It happened on Saturday. The one time I was outside in the last ten days. I wouldn't think being in a vehicle exempts you given the number of videos I have seen of people yelling at people from cruising around neighborhoods just for the sake of driving.


On the other matter - they are the ones violating all social distancing.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

So I should just shut up and accept the hypocrisy and injustice?  Is that what you're saying?

People who maintain America are lectured to.  People who have attempted to destroy our cities are given not just empathy, but praise.  "Peaceful Protesters" (who are not the bulk of people in the streets) that have been disregarding all pandemic protocols to virtue signal get to spread the virus with impunity and are praised as "courageous" by public officials.  And law abiding churchgoers are told they can't do what lawbreaking and quarantine-breaking protesters and rioters are praised for.

Why should I just sit here and take that?  Really, why?  Because it's for the greater good?

If Trump is reelected, I will note that, in no small part, our leaders chose to sing the virtue of criminals in the streets while lying about their actual behavior, while lambasting people who are pulling their weight (or being prevented from doing so due to pandemic ridiculousness) and obeying the law.  They chose to enforce quarantines on law-abiding citizens, but not on criminal rioters.

My contempt for the protester grows with every measure taken against law abiding citizens that they have been excused from.

By definition, if you violate quarantine you are not a "law-abiding citizen." You can say whatever you like to justify breaking the law-- I might even be sympathetic to some of those arguments-- but the fact remains nonetheless.

I think we all implicitly understand that government officials have given a pass to protesters because they consider it necessary to give those people an outlet for their pent-up anger and frustration. Essentially the protesters threw a hissyfit and the government let them wear themselves out until they got tired. The logistics of arresting every single one of those people were prohibitively costly and authoritarian. And as much as I'd like to lock up vandals who destroy people's private property, it's nearly impossible to determine guilt in a mob. As far as I'm concerned, they are all culpable. But again, arresting an entire mob is no easy task.

Similarly, if you want to strongarm the government into letting you... uh... go to church, be my guest. You're already free to attend socially distanced services outdoors, and you can pray whenever you want, but if you really need to be in the special building, that's what you should do. Get a couple million of your fellow Christians, make signs, and start marching in the streets. Then maybe you'll win the right to sit in a poorly ventilated room with a couple hundred other people, all breathing the same air, in the middle of a pandemic. Honestly Fuzzy, if that's what you want, then that is Darwin Award material-- and at that point you should be allowed to go.

I received a notification of a protest outside my house on Saturday, so I figured it was the same as every one before. I was actually shocked to run into a blocks-long parade marching behind a golden cross, a few MAGA shirts but many more Christian signs. I would never have heard of it if I didn't select that time to get groceries. It was a mildly annoying inconvenience to try and cross the street as they all passed by with the help of crossing guards, but clearly it did not rise to the level of mass destruction needed to bring any sort of attention to their cause - (whatever their cause was since they should be able to worship as they please). Why is there any reason to believe our dishonest media would give these people the time of day?