This Once Great Movement Of Ours

[Wiswylfen]

It says something about the culture of the Labour Party than when I went to Cambridge CLP's centenary event, one of the questions for the panel was "Can you forgive Ramsay Macdonald?"* This was prompted by the questioner having cleaned out an old storeroom in the party offices a few months before and having found an old picture of him that had been purposefully turned towards the wall.

*It also says something about Cambridge CLP in particular, of course.

What did Cllr Owers think?

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I don't recall, but I can't imagine him ever turning down an opportunity for a pointless grudge.

I can see the Tory Socialist Case for the National Government.

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The issue with ‘the suits’ is often talked by the left as being the whole ‘briefcase’ bit. But that’s really not a problem at all except for the combination it invariably comes in. The issue is the false adoption of professionalism when, in reality, as we have been shown time and time again and most hilariously by the ‘Sue Gray orders staffers to stop briefing; issues with Andy Burnham instantly cease’ incident, they have nothing of the sort. As I’ve said before it’s not actually about ‘being professional’ or ‘winning elections’ it’s about LARPing because you want to be like Carlson Tucker from It Thick The Of on the teevee.

In reality there’s nothing wrong with wearing a suit—and please don’t take this as an attack on you, rather this is an attack on them and the complete misdiagnosis of the ‘briefcase’ discussion—and all that stuff except for it being part of a stupid LARP (see also: Twitter accounts claiming to be the ‘Last Blairite’ run by people who voted for Allin-Khan to be deputy leader with a mass audience including Labour MPs).

I don’t do it myself, mainly because I’m conscious of the associations at my age, but there is anecdotal evidence (good as any in a nation where ‘how places vote’ is one giant game of telephone) that it is actually one of those things that goes down rather well with the electorate: also surprisingly, the number-one issue in working-class areas is not the legalisation of dirt bike racing on pavements and the God-given right of dogs to take a dump on the miserable patch of grass that nobody allows their children to play on because it’s riddled with dog mess. (*Also*, anecdotally and tangentially, where those people do vote—generally they do not and those are not disengaged non-voters who can be won over with Corbynism—they are (alongside those who look down on the rest) the bedrock of ‘working-class’ (if we can call it such) support for the Conservatives and the parties to their right.)

And this complete lack of actual professionalism isn’t a phenomenon of the youngs. There is a former Labour member in my constituency (I am uncertain to what extent that ‘former’ is voluntary), previously a councillor and staffer, who does nothing but tweet about how Israel is so great and transgender people are a hard-left plot. Just one person, you say—but look on Twitter and there are tons of these people (to be fair where it is undeserved I assume most of them have a drinking problem). On Twitter, you say—but when the staffers (no, even Wes Streeting, by his own admission!) are giving advice based on what might piss off a Simpsons pfp, yes, on Twitter.

This is the fate of the ‘Labour right’. Aside from these children who talk about a foreign state a dozen times as much as they do England, I suppose—though there is significant overlap—we also have the people still trying to resuscitate the long-dead psychodramas of a project fundamentally of the soft left. But does anyone care if Lord Bloggs of Snith-le-Moor (prominent People’s Vote advocate who lost his 71% Leave seat in 2019 by 0.3%; blames Corbyn and nobody else) still hates Gordon Brown and thinks that, to win back the Red Wall and stop the Conservatives from winning the next election, Keir Starmer must privatise the civil service and pledge to rejoin the EU?

Labour First, supposedly the voice of the traditional right or whatever, is rather than a mass-membership organisation basically just one man living in Oxford who runs everything out of his house while searching his name on Twitter to get into fights with the Simpsons pfps over Israel bombing Gaza. I’d sooner break bread with the non-crank sections of the hard left than suffer another minute of this. ‘Labour to Win’ my foot.

[Wiswylfen]

The original version of Labour First back in the 1980s was run by one man in Bradford with access to an early computer printer and an enthusiasm for putting together newsletters, which is illustrative of how these things tend to be.* Similarly, the mighty Campaign for Labour Party Democracy was, in reality, never much more than a mailing list, which remains true of whatever is left of it, and also became true of Momentum very early on, for all its grander ambitions. Basically these groups exist to win seats on the NEC and for various Conference-related purposes (and to this extent do matter, especially when the Party is in opposition), but they aren't genuine grassroots factional organizations, which aren't really a thing in the Labour Party (which is probably why Party civil wars tend to be so clownish).

_{*David Warburton (no, not that one) who, many years later, represented Wyke ward on Bradford council for sixteen years, holding off a BNP challenge in his first election and a UKIP one a couple of terms later. One presumes that his enthusiasm for putting together newsletters was useful.}

They do, of course, matter. As do the staffers who kept stirring up trouble with Andy Burnham until Sue Gray put an end to it. In both cases it’s an ‘unfortunately’. Votes should not be up to Luke Akehurst—when not too busy fighting with fellow Marxists drawing attention to his baldness on Twitter dot com—and the hatchlings emerging from the carcass of Progress. That they are is, like the power of the staffers, a damning indictment of the party.

Factionalism is, as you say, generally not a thing at a local level (aside from the left-cranks and right-cranks who make it their mission to hate (a) each other, if possible or (b) everyone else, in the absence of that) and divisions that do exist within the party locally often have to do with completely esoteric matters. Even during Corbyn’s leadership this was true, let alone during the height of TB/GB (Blairite/Brownite) absurdity.

[Wiswylfen]

Correct me if I've read the reports wrong, but - after a "crunch meeting" today, Labour *aren't* dropping the £28 billion green energy target, and the same staffers who spend their time briefing against green policies and Ed Miliband are now turning their sights on Sue Gray because she backed the policy?

Whoever this is - are they really useful enough that it's worth this constant sniping to journalists at the Times?

It's like the £28 billion. They're not actually mad at Ed Miliband for that (idk maybe the securonomics true believers are) but rather because he spared David Miliband the ignominy of leading the Labour party to 220 seats. Likewise, they're mad at Sue Gray because she told them to stop acting like children with the briefing against Andy Burnham.

[Wiswylfen]

I am reminded yet again that David Evans spoke at Conference of how actually it was good that Labour was cautious in 1997 because if they hadn't campaigned in seats they'd previously lost by ten votes in 1992 they wouldn't have won. Too many people scared of their own shadow and 1992.

It's a shame: Securonomics sounds good. Too bad that in practice it seems to be complete rubbish.

[Wiswylfen]

Posters on TwitterX dot com have been ridiculing Reeves for saying Labour is ”now the pro-worker, pro-business party.”

It seems a disproportionate number of Very Online left-wingers are LARPing as Communists, because “pro-worker, pro-business” just sounds like social democracy? What am I missing?

It's a line they've been taking for a while now: it's fine to the extent that it's about industrial strategy (insofar as it's not 'financial services') and planning, but when the leadership is thanking Bloomberg by name and pledging not to raise corporation tax while refusing to "allow public spending needs, however important, to threaten the stability of our finances", there are plenty of non-online people in no way on the party's left who will take issue.

[Wiswylfen]

Really starting to wonder why exactly I should remain a party member if I am considered a racist for believing that citizens of our country joining foreign armies is a bad thing, actually, and should be banned, even if those foreign armies happen to be committing war crimes.

edit: I will note that I have more of a personal connection to this issue than most—my father almost ended up in a foreign army (the IDF, as it happens) himself.

[Wiswylfen]

As a long-term hater, she'd be a total disaster.

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It’s sad to see what Owen Jones has been reduced to, his ups and downs with Corbynism seemed to send him over the edge. It’s the hope that kills you perhaps.

Personally I’ve always suspected he’s not all there, his views on Starmer/Gaza are increasingly detached from reality. I actually do hope some day he can come back to Labour once he’s sorted out whatever he’s going through. He’s far from the worst of Corbynism.

An excellent example of the increasingly unpleasant and, to the outside observer, bizarre attitude towards Owen Jones. The 'good cop' flip-side to just screaming that he's a racist misogynist. There's something Seriously Wrong with Owen Jones: how could anyone defend themselves against false accusations?

[Wiswylfen]

It’s sad to see what Owen Jones has been reduced to, his ups and downs with Corbynism seemed to send him over the edge. It’s the hope that kills you perhaps.

Personally I’ve always suspected he’s not all there, his views on Starmer/Gaza are increasingly detached from reality. I actually do hope some day he can come back to Labour once he’s sorted out whatever he’s going through. He’s far from the worst of Corbynism.

An excellent example of the increasingly unpleasant and, to the outside observer, bizarre attitude towards Owen Jones. The 'good cop' flip-side to just screaming that he's a racist misogynist. There's something Seriously Wrong with Owen Jones: how could anyone defend themselves against false accusations?

1. I’ve never called him a racist or a misogynist, personally I don’t think he’s either, I just think he’s blinkered. And seems to struggle with understanding the views of others, which means he paints himself in to a corner on issues he doesn’t need to.

2. It’s sad if you live in a world where you think the pity I feel for what he’s become is unpleasant.

Yes I do think it's unpleasant. I think the whole (insincere) "oh actually I pity him really" thing is deeply unpleasant.

It is for immensely good reason the realm of people like Jake Wallis Simons—who, when not making absurd accusations of racism, writes erotica about 17-year-old girls—and Hadley Freeman, who when not losing her mind about transgender people bravely stands up for Women's Rights by circling the wagons around Nick Cohen.* Or Nick Timothy (who then of course ran away like the pathetic, miserable coward he is).

The accusation that Owen Jones fails to understand the views of others, whatever the truth of it, is an incredibly ironic one to follow a sentence in which you seem to think I said that you called him a racist or misogynist.

*Now a martyr, brutally cancelled by that mean Jolyon Maugham man over the Trans. Not, as some suggest, because he is a sexual predator and has faced no actual consequences.

[Wiswylfen]

It’s sad to see what Owen Jones has been reduced to, his ups and downs with Corbynism seemed to send him over the edge. It’s the hope that kills you perhaps.

Personally I’ve always suspected he’s not all there, his views on Starmer/Gaza are increasingly detached from reality. I actually do hope some day he can come back to Labour once he’s sorted out whatever he’s going through. He’s far from the worst of Corbynism.

An excellent example of the increasingly unpleasant and, to the outside observer, bizarre attitude towards Owen Jones. The 'good cop' flip-side to just screaming that he's a racist misogynist. There's something Seriously Wrong with Owen Jones: how could anyone defend themselves against false accusations?

1. I’ve never called him a racist or a misogynist, personally I don’t think he’s either, I just think he’s blinkered. And seems to struggle with understanding the views of others, which means he paints himself in to a corner on issues he doesn’t need to.

2. It’s sad if you live in a world where you think the pity I feel for what he’s become is unpleasant.

Yes I do think it's unpleasant. I think the whole (insincere) "oh actually I pity him really" thing is deeply unpleasant.

It is for immensely good reason the realm of people like Jake Wallis Simons—who, when not making absurd accusations of racism, writes erotica about 17-year-old girls—and Hadley Freeman, who when not losing her mind about transgender people bravely stands up for Women's Rights by circling the wagons around Nick Cohen.* Or Nick Timothy (who then of course ran away like the pathetic, miserable coward he is).

The accusation that Owen Jones fails to understand the views of others, whatever the truth of it, is an incredibly ironic one to follow a sentence in which you seem to think I said that you called him a racist or misogynist.

*Now a martyr, brutally cancelled by that mean Jolyon Maugham man over the Trans. Not, as some suggest, because he is a sexual predator and has faced no actual consequences.

I do pity him, he’s not a stupid man or a bigot but he’s thrown away any relevance or influence he could have had because of his obsession with Starmer - which is not based in reality. Which is not good for the Labour Party, because he’s someone who actually understood class-based politics.

I’ve also next to no clue who the other people you’re talking about are, and I doubt it has much to do with Owen Jones from what I can glean.

Oh it has everything to do with Owen Jones. Jake Wallis Simons says he's a racist. Hadley Freeman says he's a racist and a misogynist. Nick Timothy says he's mentally disturbed for... uhh... reasons. And then often from the same people, and/or their associates, we get the I Pity Owen Jones act. The very least you could do is save it for elsewhere: I doubt many people on this forum are going to buy it.

And also, please put some effort into disguising that you're copying from Luke Akehurst's tweets. Owen Jones is 'obsessed' (no not really) with Keir Starmer—Keir Starmer is obsessed with (complaining to Twitter about, ordering candidate training over) the fact some left-wing jokester made a fake AI recording of his voice along with a dozen purporting to be Captain Tom speaking from heaven.

[Wiswylfen]

It’s sad to see what Owen Jones has been reduced to, his ups and downs with Corbynism seemed to send him over the edge. It’s the hope that kills you perhaps.

Personally I’ve always suspected he’s not all there, his views on Starmer/Gaza are increasingly detached from reality. I actually do hope some day he can come back to Labour once he’s sorted out whatever he’s going through. He’s far from the worst of Corbynism.

An excellent example of the increasingly unpleasant and, to the outside observer, bizarre attitude towards Owen Jones. The 'good cop' flip-side to just screaming that he's a racist misogynist. There's something Seriously Wrong with Owen Jones: how could anyone defend themselves against false accusations?

1. I’ve never called him a racist or a misogynist, personally I don’t think he’s either, I just think he’s blinkered. And seems to struggle with understanding the views of others, which means he paints himself in to a corner on issues he doesn’t need to.

2. It’s sad if you live in a world where you think the pity I feel for what he’s become is unpleasant.

Yes I do think it's unpleasant. I think the whole (insincere) "oh actually I pity him really" thing is deeply unpleasant.

It is for immensely good reason the realm of people like Jake Wallis Simons—who, when not making absurd accusations of racism, writes erotica about 17-year-old girls—and Hadley Freeman, who when not losing her mind about transgender people bravely stands up for Women's Rights by circling the wagons around Nick Cohen.* Or Nick Timothy (who then of course ran away like the pathetic, miserable coward he is).

The accusation that Owen Jones fails to understand the views of others, whatever the truth of it, is an incredibly ironic one to follow a sentence in which you seem to think I said that you called him a racist or misogynist.

*Now a martyr, brutally cancelled by that mean Jolyon Maugham man over the Trans. Not, as some suggest, because he is a sexual predator and has faced no actual consequences.

I do pity him, he’s not a stupid man or a bigot but he’s thrown away any relevance or influence he could have had because of his obsession with Starmer - which is not based in reality. Which is not good for the Labour Party, because he’s someone who actually understood class-based politics.

I’ve also next to no clue who the other people you’re talking about are, and I doubt it has much to do with Owen Jones from what I can glean.

Oh it has everything to do with Owen Jones. Jake Wallis Simons says he's a racist. Hadley Freeman says he's a racist and a misogynist. Nick Timothy says he's mentally disturbed for... uhh... reasons. And then often from the same people, and/or their associates, we get the I Pity Owen Jones act. The very least you could do is save it for elsewhere: I doubt many people on this forum are going to buy it.

And also, please put some effort into disguising that you're copying from Luke Akehurst's tweets. Owen Jones is 'obsessed' (no not really) with Keir Starmer—Keir Starmer is obsessed with (complaining to Twitter about, ordering candidate training over) the fact some left-wing jokester made a fake AI recording of his voice along with a dozen purporting to be Captain Tom speaking from heaven.

I’d gently suggest you’re more than a little conspiratorial if people as unimportant as Hadley Freeman and Luke Akehurst occupy enough of your thoughts that you believe a random person expressing sympathy for Owen Jones is an associate of them. I’ll never chide someone for being too online (if for no other reason than it would be hypocritical to do so on a politics forum!)…but even I don’t really follow what you’re talking about.

I don't know what part of it's supposed to be too online? Hadley Freeman was a Guardian columnist, now she works for the Times. Luke Akehurst, like it or not, sits on the Labour NEC and has significant power over the 'organised' right. But even if it were, it wouldn't matter: our politics, regardless of whether you want them to be, are online. Hence why Luke Akehurst gets into Twitter fights (via searching his own name) with random leftists.

[Wiswylfen]

Interestingly, I don’t follow Luke Akehurst (really isn’t the fact I vote in the NEC elections bad enough?) but I actually do follow Owen Jones on twitter.

Perhaps I ought to though, if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer. It has been so lonely with such a unique view.

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

Because you have a tendency to lose them? If you're going to post about how you've "always suspected he’s not all there" and his views being "increasingly detached from reality" don't be too surprised if someone pushes back against it and asks if Guardian man is not as bad as you purport him to be. One of these days someone will actually explain how Guardian man bad. One of these days. And I don't mean in Al's sense—'Guardian man bad' is, above all else, the sentiment of people to whom journalists actually being good at their job* is completely irrelevant. Just to be clear, since apparently I have to, I'm not accusing you of being among them.

Returning to the Akehurst business, I really don't get why you're trying to deny something so obvious. You never talk about class, then there's a six-hour gap between him talking about how Owen Jones "had a serious, class-based analysis of society" and you about how he "actually understood class-based politics". I'm not talking about you thinking that there is "something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer" (what fixation would that be?) so IDK what that's about other than you ascribing opinions to me I don't have.

*Or refraining from sexually assaulting their colleagues.

[Wiswylfen]

Dude you didn’t know I existed til yesterday 😂 I wrote my dissertation on class and talk about it a lot. I seriously doubt Akehurst said what you’re claiming he did, but if he did that’s just another example of how common the view that OJ isn’t a stupid guy is.

No you don't. If you're going to lie at least make it convincing. 2,000 posts and you never talk about it. And on the occasions you do, it's "everyone who goes to a private school is upper-class" and "the reactionary working class used to vote and join Labour". By your own admission the only reason you don't think the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington vote Labour (as you expected them to) is because you've actually canvassed there.

And 'dude' I have known you existed for two years now. Again this has nothing to do with opinion of Owen Jones; it is about the fact it is patently obvious where and from who you borrowed your words from.

This may shock you, but I’ve on occasion spoken to people outside of this forum. My comments on this forum do not consist of an exhaustive list of my correspondence or indeed views.

Nice to know I’m impactful enough for you to have thought about me for two years though, if I ever need a biographer I’ll know who to call!

Known about you for two years, thought about you for two years—still doing that 'stuff which isn't there' thing huh.

Of course I talk about the forum: where else? From your (lack of) statements about class on the forum it is easily observed that you have as little interest in 'class' as understanding of it. I have no idea how someone who wrote a dissertation on class can display such a total lack of interest in it, let alone an understanding of it that, again, leads to you expecting the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington to vote Labour.

And, you know, given how narrow the results were... did you, then, expect the north of the constituency to vote Conservative? I could maybe understand you expecting them to vote Labour were Kensington an overwhelmingly Labour constituency, but no the Conservatives have polled between 38% and 52% there over the past fifteen years.

[Wiswylfen]

Dude you didn’t know I existed til yesterday 😂 I wrote my dissertation on class and talk about it a lot. I seriously doubt Akehurst said what you’re claiming he did, but if he did that’s just another example of how common the view that OJ isn’t a stupid guy is.

No you don't. If you're going to lie at least make it convincing. 2,000 posts and you never talk about it. And on the occasions you do, it's "everyone who goes to a private school is upper-class" and "the reactionary working class used to vote and join Labour". By your own admission the only reason you don't think the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington vote Labour (as you expected them to) is because you've actually canvassed there.

And 'dude' I have known you existed for two years now. Again this has nothing to do with opinion of Owen Jones; it is about the fact it is patently obvious where and from who you borrowed your words from.

This may shock you, but I’ve on occasion spoken to people outside of this forum. My comments on this forum do not consist of an exhaustive list of my correspondence or indeed views.

Nice to know I’m impactful enough for you to have thought about me for two years though, if I ever need a biographer I’ll know who to call!

Known about you for two years, thought about you for two years—still doing that 'stuff which isn't there' thing huh.

Of course I talk about the forum: where else? From your (lack of) statements about class on the forum it is easily observed that you have as little interest in 'class' as understanding of it. I have no idea how someone who wrote a dissertation on class can display such a total lack of interest in it, let alone an understanding of it that, again, leads to you expecting the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington to vote Labour.

And, you know, given how narrow the results were... did you, then, expect the north of the constituency to vote Conservative? I could maybe understand you expecting them to vote Labour were Kensington an overwhelmingly Labour constituency, but no the Conservatives have polled between 38% and 52% there over the past fifteen years.

Dude you remember a comment I made about something as irrelevant as Kensington I have no recollection of, you cannot be trying to pretend I’m not living rent free.

Again, I’ve no clue what you’re talking about (or why you care) - but I imagine I was referring to when I canvassed there when it had a Labour MP (2018 council elections iirc) and I’d expected it to be similar to Bristol west - where I’d attended university - only to find that it wasn’t. I seriously doubt I was making a thorough or nuanced argument at the time.

Actually I just searched your posts for 'class'.

[Wiswylfen]

Also I'm not quite sure what defence "actually I thought the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington would vote Labour" is supposed to be against "you thought the 'affluent posh bits' of Kensington would vote Labour". The reason 'why I care' is because it is an exceptionally good example of you completely failing to understand class, what it is, what it means, and how it works, despite writing a dissertation on it and claiming to actually be very interested in it.

I also question why you're going on about how wow two people think Owen Jones isn't stupid. I'm not talking about you having the same opinion as someone else, I'm talking about you blatantly copying from Luke Akehurst's tweets—and politely requesting that you refrain from doing so as obviously in the future because that I get him on my timeline is bad (and reason to quit Twitter) enough.

Let's go back, check your posts, and reiterate some things.

I do pity him, he’s not a stupid man or a bigot but he’s thrown away any relevance or influence he could have had because of his obsession with Starmer - which is not based in reality. Which is not good for the Labour Party, because he’s someone who actually understood class-based politics.

I’ve also next to no clue who the other people you’re talking about are, and I doubt it has much to do with Owen Jones from what I can glean.

You do not 'pity him'. You are doing an deeply unpleasant act of affected sympathy because, supposedly, he is 'Not All There' and 'Going Through' 'whatever'. Unsurprisingly, I have a strong dislike for (a) insinuating a man is mentally ill because (for reasons understandable to me despite my disagreements with that man) he does not support Keir Starmer and (b) doing a faux sympathy act over it.

Also all the things I mentioned were directly to do with Owen Jones (as I explained to you—though for some reason you decided, with nothing at all to it, that I was actually saying that I think you're an 'associate' of Hadley Freeman and completely ignoring the explanation provided).

Interestingly, I don’t follow Luke Akehurst (really isn’t the fact I vote in the NEC elections bad enough?) but I actually do follow Owen Jones on twitter.

Perhaps I ought to though, if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer. It has been so lonely with such a unique view.

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

It is obvious that you saw and were 'inspired by' his tweet, though for some reason you've chosen this as the hill to make your defence and distract from the fact that this originated with you making unpleasant insinuations about a man's state of mind because he thinks Keith man bad or whatever.

So at this point I don't know if you're failing to read my posts correctly or just lying about what I've said. "if as you seem to believe he’s the only person besides me who’s ever thought there was something strange about OJ’s fixation on Starmer"—where is this from? Again, as I said, I'm not talking about you having the same opinion as someone else.

[Wiswylfen]

Would love to know what “briefcase vibes” means in English too fwiw. But I’m sure that everyone else is as tired as I am of this ah, debate. Perhaps you can DM it to me.

Well this I know at least, it is a play on the phrase "Briefcase Labour" - a derisive term for a certain type of careerist who has literally done nothing but politics in general, and plotting in particular.

It's more than that—young, faux-professional to an absurd extent, thinks they're in of it the thick, complains about 'the left' caring about/'fixating on' Palestine while constantly defending Israel, understands politics mainly by reference to mythologised past events (or the chicken suit thing), reads political biographies, etc.

Since I just know I'll get "well actually I haven't..." there is a reason I said 'Briefcase vibes'. You don't have to have done all these things, let alone on this forum, to give me Briefcase vibes.

Fascinating. I’ll have to see if Luke Akehurst tweets about it so I know how to use it in a sentence.

I don't think it's at all 'conspiratorial' to suggest that perhaps a self-admittedly 'too online' Labour member who is obviously from that section of the party which accuses 'the left' of fixating on Palestine while Standing With Israel 24/7 saw a convenient supposed point 'for'/against Owen Jones involving his "class-based analysis of society" coming from someone also of that section and—not actually having one themselves, because again 'from the start it's just been unpleasant insinuations about a man's state of mind because he thinks Keith man bad'—changed it up a bit.

[Wiswylfen]

You're both winners in my book. I'm still not sure what you are arguing about though.

The sincerity of his attacks on Owen Jones. His arguments being copied from Luke Akehurst's Twitter timeline serves as detail to that: he lacked an opinion of his own, beyond disliking Owen Jones over him having left the Labour Party, so had to find one from elsewhere. When that fell apart he resorted to nonsensical talk of 'fixations' on either Keir Starmer or 'random things', depending on the post. Like, it's politics; of course Jones is going to talk about Keir Starmer. He's the leader of the Labour Party and about to be prime minister.

The following section of the post does not concern Coldstream, just to be absolutely clear, because although I don't see how it could be read as such I am sure someone else would. I don't particularly like Owen Jones. That I'm on the right of the party—though in a different way to the likes of Luke Akehurst—is fairly obvious. But one thing I really don't like is being lied to, and lies are what the constant attacks on him for all quarters depend on.

The man unnecessarily apologises for commenting on the Kate Middleton photoshop: GB News calls him 'cruel' in an article written by a woman who herself responded to it by asking people if it meant they didn't like her anymore; the Daily Mail puts him front-and-centre in an article written by one of the many creatures who helped kill local news; 'showbiz reporters' at The Sun accuse him of "peddling 'ghastly' Princess Kate conspiracy theories"; and the Express calls him a 'whinging leftie' who "engaged with wild conspiracy theories" to the delight of their readers. Of course none of the stupid hacks actually believe it themselves. They're just feeding the pigs their slop.

For some reason Owen Jones really aggravates people—not so much by his actions as by his existence. Dog pfp boomers froth at him. Politicians scream about the evils he's done, though are careful to omit any reference to what, exactly, those evils are. Men like Alex Hearn screech that he's "accusing a Jew of lying about antisemitism" for suggesting that, perhaps, Gary Lineker does not in fact hate Jews.

Personally I find it ridiculous. But hey-ho we live in a world where Owen Jones is accused of "swimming in a neo-Nazi swamp" because he screenshotted a post from a news account that turns out to have been run by a racist (as though it's reasonable Owen Jones should have known about that account's replies to another from last year), while the man making the accusation (Alex Hearn, Labour Against Antisemitism director*) can go after elderly Jewish women on Twitter for not being religious enough all he wants, to the applause of a Twitter account named after a fictional paedophile that sitting Labour MPs follow for some reason, so who cares really.

[Wiswylfen]

Anyway, Tommy McAvoy (Lord McAvoy from 2010) died earlier this month. MP for Glasgow Rutherglen 1987-2005 and Rutherglen & Hamilton West 2005-10, he was a classic Labour Party career whip and spent all but five of his twenty three years as an MP in the whip's office, including for the entire duration of the Blair-Brown government. He then continued to work as a Labour whip in the Lords, only retiring in 2021. There are different approaches to whipping, and McAvoy's seems to have been similar to that of Bob Mellish: he was well-liked by most MPs and could even be supportive and helpful, but he was also feared and it was well understood that one did not wish to get into his bad books. He was also noted for his extreme local particularism and lobbied (successfully) to have Rutherglen detached from Glasgow when the present Scottish local government system was created in the 1990s. He once responded to a complaint from an errant backbencher that he was 'just a Glasgow thug' by objecting as he was actually from Rutherglen.

One of those figures who played a very important but quiet role in ensuring that 97-2010 could happen; at risk of sounding like a Colonel Blimp you wonder who will fulfil these roles in the whips office when the flock panics in the next Parliament!

Labour whips lore is legendary; the current chief of course served as deputy in the Blair/brown era and was recommended by Nick Brown when he departed- another fun fact is it was rumoured JC wanted to remove Campbell but was told by NB that he would quit.

A fact I always tell people is that Bridget Phillipson spent a lot of her early time in the whips office and it shows.

And with such equal loyalty Nick Brown was repaid!

[Wiswylfen]

Isn't that very much a "local politics" thing?

It wouldn't have succeeded without Alan Campbell's willingness to go along with it. Which has led to a man being thrown to the wolves, his reputation trashed by the vilest speculation (all wrong—and all egged on by those sections of the media now going on about how awful it is to speculate, full stop, when you don't know the details). Oh and his seat is going to Mary Glindon. What an end to such a long career. I just hope Nick Forbes is proud of himself.

[Wiswylfen]

A large proportion of the people complaining in the comments of that tweet have the Palestinian, EU and/or trans flags in their name/bio. Nationalism and pride is completely normal until it’s a political party using the flag of its own country.

Really? What country is that?

[Wiswylfen]

A large proportion of the people complaining in the comments of that tweet have the Palestinian, EU and/or trans flags in their name/bio. Nationalism and pride is completely normal until it’s a political party using the flag of its own country.

Really? What country is that?

We are talking about the UK flag here?

Even if you consider yourself primarily English, it is still your flag.

I consider myself completely English. I am no more or less 'British' than I am a European, and the flag is no more or less mine than the European Union's flag was before Brexit.

[Wiswylfen]

Sometimes you have to lead, but of course right now the party won't even follow.

[Wiswylfen]

Sometimes you have to lead, but of course right now the party won't even follow.

Political parties are for the most part followers, not leaders. Its the nature of the thing.

Immediately, that much is all I want.