Toomey is serious

[Nixon in '80]

Toomey should stick to what he's good at... getting Democrats elected.

[Nixon in '80]

Toomey should stick to what he's good at... getting Democrats elected.

I love that the idea that Toomey has "helped elect" a slew of Democrats was disproven yet the haters still carry on.

If you have a post or website that categorically disproves this notion, I would be very interested, and if I feel satisfied by it's conclusions, I will gladly eat my words.

[Nixon in '80]

Toomey should stick to what he's good at... getting Democrats elected.

I love that the idea that Toomey has "helped elect" a slew of Democrats was disproven yet the haters still carry on.

If you have a post or website that categorically disproves this notion, I would be very interested, and if I feel satisfied by it's conclusions, I will gladly eat my words.

Uh...

So because you feel like hating Toomey and have followed this myth that he and his group have elected Democrats, I have to prove that he's innocent?

Sorry. It doesn't work that way. Prove to me that he helped elect a slew of Democrats. Otherwise, innocent until proven guilty.

You claimed it had been disproven, I merely asked for your evidence.

As for Pat Toomey getting Democrats elected, the most obvious example is Wayne Gilchrest-Andrew Harris-Frank Kratovil... how did Harris manage to lose a seat with a Cook PVI of R+10? Would Wayne Gilchrest have held his seat? While these questions cannot be addressed with certainty, I think the answers are rather obvious.

The "RINO Watch" culture of the Republican Party is hurting our electoral viability. That's my thesis, and I feel it needs no proof beyond common sense.

[Nixon in '80]

I leave for eighteen hours and everybody moves on without me...

Look, I'm not saying Wayne Gilchrest didn't help get Frank Kratovil elected; he did, much more directly than Pat Toomey. But, had Gilchrest not been defeated in the primary, that seat would still be in Republican hands, and Pat Toomey helped defeat Wayne Gilchrest in the primary. Therefore, it stands to reason that Pat Toomey indirectly helped elect Frank Kratovil.

As for the Club for Growth's philosophy as a whole, it seems to break down like this:

Conservative Republicans > Liberal Democrats > Liberal Republicans

and that's something I just can't support.

[Nixon in '80]

I leave for eighteen hours and everybody moves on without me...

Look, I'm not saying Wayne Gilchrest didn't help get Frank Kratovil elected; he did, much more directly than Pat Toomey. But, had Gilchrest not been defeated in the primary, that seat would still be in Republican hands, and Pat Toomey helped defeat Wayne Gilchrest in the primary. Therefore, it stands to reason that Pat Toomey indirectly helped elect Frank Kratovil.

But that's not really helping the Democrats as much as you guys want us to believe.

We never hear complaints about Gilchrist directly helping Kratovil so spare me the lectures, ok?

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Whatever, dude.

And for RINOs, it seems like it comes down to this...

Complain about how you're the only electable person and how you have to save the party ----> Run to the Dems when you lose

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But it is helping at least a little? Even a teensy bit?

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In the case of Gilchrest and a number of others, yes, I'll admit that.

If Gilchrest claims he's saving the Republican Party by helping Kratovil get elected, he's just as full of sh**t as Pat Toomey.

[Nixon in '80]

But it is helping at least a little? Even a teensy bit?

That's what happens in politics sometimes. We make decisions that sometimes gives the opposition some ammo but we have to learn not to run away, cry and side with the opposition simply out of spite.

So Pat Toomey helps get Democrats elected... thank you, that's all I wanted to hear.

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But, dude, Pat Toomey isn't full of shit. He's defending his principles. You might not like it but that doesn't mean he's full of it.
[/quote]

Jay-slash-kay, bro... Pat Toomey isn't full of it anymore than the rest of us are, but the notion that pushing the moderates out of the GOP will strengthen it... well, that's bull.

[Nixon in '80]

So Pat Toomey helps get Democrats elected... thank you, that's all I wanted to hear.

So you want to be a child? Good for you.

Just because Toomey's candidats aren't as electable as others in some districts doesn't mean he helps Democrats get elected.

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This isn't about moderates but the Toomey haters and those of us that defend him/the Club for Growth will continue to only see it your way.

RINOs are not moderates.

I think we definitely strengthen our party when people like Lincoln Chafee leave. And guess what? The RI GOP voters re-nominated that joke. He lost in the General and still threw a tantrum about the GOP. He wasn't a Republican. He's gone. I'm glad. Scores of others are as well.

Rolling your eyes too much gives you headaches.

Lincoln Chafee, I agree, was a RINO (he was still better than Sheldon Whitehouse, IMO)... he basically lined up with the DNC on everything ... but does Arlen Specter?

If Arlen Specter is a RINO, not a moderate, then perhaps I am too... maybe you all should just kick me out of the party. If you're not going to let a few of us hang around and vote for your candidates and side with you 70% of the time, maybe this party isn't worth saving. If the Republicans are now the party of "The Plank" and the Democrats are the Big Tent, hell, the party's over, so to speak.

This is all coming out very melodramatic in print, so I ask you to reread it with a tone of light sarcasm and levity to really get the mood of it.

[Nixon in '80]

If Arlen Specter is a RINO, not a moderate, then perhaps I am too... maybe you all should just kick me out of the party. If you're not going to let a few of us hang around and vote for your candidates and side with you 70% of the time, maybe this party isn't worth saving. If the Republicans are now the party of "The Plank" and the Democrats are the Big Tent, hell, the party's over, so to speak.

You're not an elected official. You haven't worked to screw the party on several major fronts. I couldn't care less about kicking out someone like that.

Yes, but Arlen Specter and the like represent my views more accurately than "real" Republicans. While I do not live in Pennsylvania, and thus had no hand in electing him, I still feel he is a spiritual surrogate for me. Consequently, when people like him are forced out of the party by people like Pat Toomey with a ferocity usually reserved for the nastiest interparty races, I take it as an assault on my values.

Yes, hard as it is to believe, moderates have values too, values they can hold just as strongly as any "principled conservative" holds his.

When the moderates (or RINOs, or anyone to the left of Bob Dole) are forced out of the party, it becomes difficult for me to continue to identify as, and vote as, a Republican.

Both the far-right and the far-left talk about how the two major parties are clones of each other, idealogically. Well, obviously, that's false, but I sympathize with the sentiment: Nobody represents me. Well, nobody represents me. At least the Democrats are talking about pragmatism and cooperation, while the Republicans assume we'll one day see the error of our ways and become good conservatives. Well, sorry, it ain't happening.

Look, I don't know precisely where this is going, but the underlying message is: Where go the RINOs, so go I (and a voting bloc large enough to swing most elections.)



Well, that was quite the rambling diatribe. Phil, this whole thing is not really directed at you at all, more at them, a disembodied composite of people, statements, and emotions.

I hate them.

[Nixon in '80]

Yes, hard as it is to believe, moderates have values too, values they can hold just as strongly as any "principled conservative" holds his.

You know, this really isn't fair. I've had to do this too many times...

I do not have a problem with moderates. I may not always agree with a moderate but I'm never going to always agree with anyone! I do not like RINOs. Two very different things. Don't assume that I think moderates aren't principled.

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Oh, yeah? That's not what I've been seeing.

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But I am part of "them" and I'm afraid you confuse "our" efforts to seriously challenge RINOs as a threat to moderates.

Lincoln Chafee wasn't a moderate but plenty of you were tricked into believing he was. I hate that. And look what he goes and does to us. Him, Gilchrist, Schwarz...

Those are the types you ought to be especially angry at, my friend, as a proud moderate Republican.

Again, I would like to reiterate that this was not directed at you, and you are not them. They are people like Ann Coulter who legitimately want people like me to leave the party so that they can nominate Duncan Hunter for President with no opposition.

I do not disagree that Chafee and Gilchrest are probably better suited for the Democratic Party than the GOP, but I would still rather have a liberal Republican than a liberal Democrat any day.

The problem is when people like John McCain become the targets. As you most likely know, the Club attempted to persuade Jeff Flake to primary McCain in 2004, but Flake declined.

Some may call McCain a conservative, some a moderate, but few outside of CARLHAYDEN would call him a liberal or RINO (well, maybe officepark, but he would probably call Robert Taft a RINO).

If anyone with an ACU rating below 75 is a liberal... well, I just don't know.

[Nixon in '80]

The problem is when people like John McCain become the targets. As you most likely know, the Club attempted to persuade Jeff Flake to primary McCain in 2004, but Flake declined.

Some may call McCain a conservative, some a moderate, but few outside of CARLHAYDEN would call him a liberal or RINO (well, maybe officepark, but he would probably call Robert Taft a RINO).

If anyone with an ACU rating below 75 is a liberal... well, I just don't know.

Well, those people have been wrong on people like McCain and I've always said so.

And that's why you are not them.