What does the Bible say about abortion? (With link)

[Benjamin Frank]

From what I remember discussion of abortion in the Bible is pretty vague and ambiguous. What's more interesting is that there was a strong and almost universal moral prohibition against abortion early in the Christian tradition, from at least the Didache (so likely 1st century).

I think historically, it was more of an extension of ancient Roman tradition that Abortion was morally wrong.

Then the christians came along; and created a philosphical ( aristotle and plato ) argument against it.

It seems for part of the time in ancient Rome that there was government oppositon to abortion, but not public opposition.

Abortion was practiced on a regular basis among the poor, slave, merchant and royal classes. To ancient peoples and the Romans an abortion was amoral. There was nothing in Roman law or in the Roman heart that said, “It is wrong to kill your baby in the womb.” Tertullian, the early Christian apologist, describes how doctors of the time performed abortions:

“Among surgeons’ tools there is a certain instrument which is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for opening the uterus first of all and keeping it open. It is further furnished with an annular blade by means of which the limbs of the child within the womb are dissected with anxious but unfaltering care its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by violent delivery.

https://earlychurchhistory.org/medicine/ancient-roman-abortions-christians/

According to that article, the government was concerned about the low birth rate.

[Benjamin Frank]

First, the author says that personhood begins at first breath as support for a pro-choice position and deals with how the text is used in support for his position, but completely ignores passages pro-lifers would cite against that position, namely John the Baptist leaping in the womb, and David and Jeremiah referring to God knowing them in utero. These are relevant issues to address (particularly for a piece that has time to snark about originalism and the King James Version!), but they are ommitted entirely.

That is a fair argument for Evangelicals but not for most other Christians.

The problem is that most Christian denominations use these passages inconsistently. While Evangelicals believe in predestination, most other denominations do not. So, inconsistently most denominations argue these passages on God 'knowing David and Jeremiah' in utero is Biblical evidence that all humans are fully formed in the womb from conception, but when it comes to predestination, they turn around and argue 'we can only know for certain that God 'knew' David and Jeremiah, this is not evidence that God 'knew' any other human.'

This inconsistency is obviously especially damning of the Catholic Church.

It is presumably possible that God 'knows' everybody in the womb, but only especially knows of David and Jeremiah. This, in more formal language, is what the anti abortion non evangelicals argue (except for those few small other denominations also that believe in predestination) the problem is there is zero textual evidence to support that in the Bible.

[Benjamin Frank]

First, the author says that personhood begins at first breath as support for a pro-choice position and deals with how the text is used in support for his position, but completely ignores passages pro-lifers would cite against that position, namely John the Baptist leaping in the womb, and David and Jeremiah referring to God knowing them in utero. These are relevant issues to address (particularly for a piece that has time to snark about originalism and the King James Version!), but they are ommitted entirely.

That is a fair argument for Evangelicals but not for most other Christians.

The problem is that most Christian denominations use these passages inconsistently. While Evangelicals believe in predestination, most other denominations do not. So, inconsistently most denominations argue these passages on God 'knowing David and Jeremiah' in utero is Biblical evidence that all humans are fully formed in the womb from conception, but when it comes to predestination, they turn around and argue 'we can only know for certain that God 'knew' David and Jeremiah, this is not evidence that God 'knew' any other human.'

This inconsistency is obviously especially damning of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does teach predestination, just not double predestination.

Oh no, it actually doesn't.  The Catholic Church argues free will not predestination.

The Catholic Church permits a range of views on the subject of predestination, but there are certain points on which it is firm: “God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037). It also rejects the idea of unconditional election, stating that when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace”

In fact, the Catholic Church only argues for predestination for David and Jeremiah, because the Bible says God 'knew' them in the womb.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-is-predestination

Free will vs predestination is a binary.  If you are trying to split the difference as I outlined in my previous post, as I also said in that post, there is no textual evidence in the Bible to support that.

[Benjamin Frank]

First, the author says that personhood begins at first breath as support for a pro-choice position and deals with how the text is used in support for his position, but completely ignores passages pro-lifers would cite against that position, namely John the Baptist leaping in the womb, and David and Jeremiah referring to God knowing them in utero. These are relevant issues to address (particularly for a piece that has time to snark about originalism and the King James Version!), but they are ommitted entirely.

That is a fair argument for Evangelicals but not for most other Christians.

The problem is that most Christian denominations use these passages inconsistently. While Evangelicals believe in predestination, most other denominations do not. So, inconsistently most denominations argue these passages on God 'knowing David and Jeremiah' in utero is Biblical evidence that all humans are fully formed in the womb from conception, but when it comes to predestination, they turn around and argue 'we can only know for certain that God 'knew' David and Jeremiah, this is not evidence that God 'knew' any other human.'

This inconsistency is obviously especially damning of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does teach predestination, just not double predestination.

Oh no, it actually doesn't.  The Catholic Church argues free will not predestination.

The Catholic Church permits a range of views on the subject of predestination, but there are certain points on which it is firm: “God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037). It also rejects the idea of unconditional election, stating that when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace”

In fact, the Catholic Church only argues for predestination for David and Jeremiah, because the Bible says God 'knew' them in the womb.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-is-predestination

Free will vs predestination is a binary.  If you are trying to split the difference as I outlined in my previous post, as I also said in that post, there is no textual evidence in the Bible to support that.

Your link directly contradicts what you're saying it says.

Look at it again. I quoted from it directly. It starts off discussing the Calvinist position not the Catholic position. The Calvinists are precursors/related to Evangelicals (as I'm sure you know better than me), so it's not a surprise the Calvinists would be supportive of predestination.

[Benjamin Frank]

First, the author says that personhood begins at first breath as support for a pro-choice position and deals with how the text is used in support for his position, but completely ignores passages pro-lifers would cite against that position, namely John the Baptist leaping in the womb, and David and Jeremiah referring to God knowing them in utero. These are relevant issues to address (particularly for a piece that has time to snark about originalism and the King James Version!), but they are ommitted entirely.

That is a fair argument for Evangelicals but not for most other Christians.

The problem is that most Christian denominations use these passages inconsistently. While Evangelicals believe in predestination, most other denominations do not. So, inconsistently most denominations argue these passages on God 'knowing David and Jeremiah' in utero is Biblical evidence that all humans are fully formed in the womb from conception, but when it comes to predestination, they turn around and argue 'we can only know for certain that God 'knew' David and Jeremiah, this is not evidence that God 'knew' any other human.'

This inconsistency is obviously especially damning of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does teach predestination, just not double predestination.

Oh no, it actually doesn't.  The Catholic Church argues free will not predestination.

The Catholic Church permits a range of views on the subject of predestination, but there are certain points on which it is firm: “God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end” (CCC 1037). It also rejects the idea of unconditional election, stating that when God “establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace”

In fact, the Catholic Church only argues for predestination for David and Jeremiah, because the Bible says God 'knew' them in the womb.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-is-predestination

Free will vs predestination is a binary.  If you are trying to split the difference as I outlined in my previous post, as I also said in that post, there is no textual evidence in the Bible to support that.

Your link directly contradicts what you're saying it says.

Look at it again. I quoted from it directly. It starts off discussing the Calvinist position not the Catholic position. The Calvinists are precursors/related to Evangelicals (as I'm sure you know better than me), so it's not a surprise the Calvinists would be supportive of predestination.

The Catholic position is self-described as involving predestination. You're of the belief that it's predestination in name only being presented dishonestly, but that is interpretation, an interpretation that your source rejects. I would have made this interpretative difference clearer if I were you.

Interesting point. I'll think on it more.  Thanks for probably correcting me.