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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
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« on: January 10, 2015, 05:57:33 AM »

Of course you did. There are many lies that circulate online against Charlie Hebdo. They are hated by Islamist radicals and their apologists as much as they are by Catholic fundamentalists and far rightists.

Many fellow leftists seem to be accusing them of racism. The most...questionable cartoon was that one of the kidnapped Nigerian girls shown as pregnant.

you're misrepresenting


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other lovely not-at-all-hateful cartoons


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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2015, 01:48:02 PM »

Dark humour is the same as racism now? Yes, Charlie Hebdo didn't care to be in bad taste and make fun of the horrors of the world (that's why I'm sure they would have enjoyed the number of humorous cartoons that have been drawn about their deaths). Feel free to clutch your pearls. This doesn't change the fact that their commitment was deeply antiracist.

(note: the second one seems to be from the early Charlie Hebdo, of which I don't know enough to judge)

this isn't reddit. "it's just 'dark humour'" isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for racism
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 07:45:13 AM »

Dark humour is the same as racism now? Yes, Charlie Hebdo didn't care to be in bad taste and make fun of the horrors of the world (that's why I'm sure they would have enjoyed the number of humorous cartoons that have been drawn about their deaths). Feel free to clutch your pearls. This doesn't change the fact that their commitment was deeply antiracist.

(note: the second one seems to be from the early Charlie Hebdo, of which I don't know enough to judge)

this isn't reddit. "it's just 'dark humour'" isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for racism

It is only "racism" if you choose to interpret it that way. Their line was "fight against power and oppression wherever you find it" and in the French anti-clerical tradition they had a special fondness for attacking religious leaders and reationary religious people. In a French context that meant going after a fair amount of Muslims, anything else would have been hypocritical of them.

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

People can interpret things in different ways, of course (and are well within their rights to). If there's a right to offend, there must also be a right to be offended. Anyway, all of this is irrelevant to what happened though; even had Charlie Hebdo been the house comic of the Front National (hah!) then its staff would still not have deserved to be gunned down at their weekly editorial meeting.

of course

To those that think Charlie Hebdo only were rude to Muslims:

[img]

nobody's saying that, and it's also entirely irrelevant.

satire of privileged groups and satire of underprivileged groups are inherently two entirely different things. the former is what satire is supposed to be - social criticism - while the latter just reinforces the overwhelming prejudices that already exist. a magazine that does both, then, will do far more to hurt out-groups than to hurt in-groups.

please, in the future, don't peddle the myth of the "equal-opportunity offender" that so many other otherwise intelligent people have fallen for.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
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Posts: 9,735
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2015, 10:02:43 AM »

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

what

you claimed that black-/muslim-hating cartoons were emblematic of "fighting against power and oppression wherever you find it"


To those that think Charlie Hebdo only were rude to Muslims:

[img]

nobody's saying that, and it's also entirely irrelevant.


If you notice I said "think", not "say" and of course it isn't irrelevant. It is central to an evaluation of Charlie Hebdo that they went after all reactionary groups.

Reactionary Muslim leaders do have power in France: Over their own communities, over the way non-Muslims living in those communities can behave without being intimidated and by their general effect on the social climate in the country by legitimizing certain views - the rise of anti-semitism is a clear example of this. It is obviously legitimate to satire them.

we're not talking about "reactionary muslim leaders" here
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
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Posts: 9,735
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« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2015, 10:09:26 AM »

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

what

you claimed that black-/muslim-hating cartoons were emblematic of "fighting against power and oppression wherever you find it"

no

i would hope not, but that's sure what it sounded like
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,735
Antarctica


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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2015, 10:18:54 AM »

things i never thought i'd see: antonio using pegida-like claims that blacks and muslims in france are "powerful and oppressive"

what

you claimed that black-/muslim-hating cartoons were emblematic of "fighting against power and oppression wherever you find it"


To those that think Charlie Hebdo only were rude to Muslims:

[img]

nobody's saying that, and it's also entirely irrelevant.


If you notice I said "think", not "say" and of course it isn't irrelevant. It is central to an evaluation of Charlie Hebdo that they went after all reactionary groups.

Reactionary Muslim leaders do have power in France: Over their own communities, over the way non-Muslims living in those communities can behave without being intimidated and by their general effect on the social climate in the country by legitimizing certain views - the rise of anti-semitism is a clear example of this. It is obviously legitimate to satire them.

we're not talking about "reactionary muslim leaders" here

You do not get to decide what "we" are talking about.

it's pretty obvious who the cartoons (especially the first one i linked) were talking about.
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