Are superhero movies finally becoming less profitable among audiences?

[VBM]

There could be good MCU movies again, but they've gone off the rails.

The fact that we're in a post-Thanos world doesn't mean there can't be good movies.  They could do something like Captain America: The Winter Soldier again and everyone would love it.

There are a couple problems that pretty much anyone can identify though.

First, RDJ and Chris Evans were really really talented actors who held those movies together.  People loved watching Iron Man and, as time went on, Captain America really grew on everyone to become the clear second-best character.  Chris Hemsworth got good pretty late in the series (Thor 3, Infinity War) and seemed pretty disinterested in Thor 4.

Second, Marvel has tried to introduce new characters, but most of them aren't very good.  People just don't care.  Especially when half of them just feel like "the girl version of a character who already exists, but much smarter and more talented than that character."

Third, Marvel has absolutely flooded the space with content, to the point where it no longer feels like an MCU movie is a "special event", more like it's a quarterly obligation.  Phase 1 gave us Iron Man in 2008, and then we waited two whole years for Iron Man 2.  2011 had Thor and Captain America back-to-back, and then we waited a whole year for The Avengers.  That was five movies in four years.  Then phase 2 had two movies a year, and even by Ant Man people were already starting to get a bit worn out.  Phase 3 bumped it up to three movies a year.  Then in 2021 we had four movies and five Disney+ series.  That really felt like the turning point where everyone said "we're sick of MCU."

Fourth, but related, it doesn't help that Marvel has made clear that this next phase is a "multiverse" where all their content crosses over, so you need to be familiar with everything.  You needed to have seen WandaVision for Dr. Strange 2 to make sense.  You need to have seen Loki for any of the Kang stuff to make sense.  You'll need to have seen Falcon and the Winter Soldier for Captain America: New World Order to make sense.  It was easy to be ready for The Avengers, because you only needed to have seen three movies.  Infinity War demanded familiarity with Black Panther, Thor 3, Captain America: Civil War, Guardians of the Galaxy and Dr. Strange, but at least most of those were good movies that pretty much everybody saw, so it didn't feel as exhausting.  Nobody made me watch all seven seasons of Agents of SHIELD just to go see the next Marvel blockbuster!  In contrast most of these new movies demand that you've seen some TV show on a subscription service, or some mediocre movie that got poor reviews, so it feels like homework.  Since Black Widow looked mediocre and got poor reviews, I didn't watch it, and now if some Avengers movie comes out prominently featuring a character from that movie, I'll be disinclined to go see it.

So, the old characters people liked are gone, replaced by new characters they don't like, and Marvel is saying "even though you don't like these new characters, you have to watch the 30 hours of content per year we're pushing out featuring them, or you won't understand our next big blockbuster."  And people are saying, ok that's fine, we were good with Endgame anyway, we just won't watch lol

When it comes to introducing new heroes, Marvel should do it in mini-series that aren't at all related to the plots of the movies, like Moon Knight (which was pretty good actually). If the show gets good reviews, they can start drafting plans to incorporate that new character into some of the movies a few years down the line. If the new character is a dud, just keep them away from the movies.

[VBM]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Truly, the MCU will be remembered in the annals of film history in its rightful place beside Disney’s Star Wars and the Hobbit movies.

Horrible take. The first 3 phases of the MCU were pretty good, for the most part (with the first 2 Thor movies and the Iron Man sequels being the only duds). None of the Disney's Star Wars movies (except Rogue One) were good, and none of the Hobbit movies were good.

[VBM]

MCU largely jumped the shark following Avengers: Endgame, with maybe the notable exception of the Spider-Man films.

I liked No Way Home at the time, but in hindsight, it was because that movie was the first true post-COVID box office hit (I like cinemas and don't like the concept of movies released solely on streaming services) and one of the first times I'd been to the theater since March of 2020. Also, my massive nostalgia for the Maguire/Raimi trilogy in particular was a huge bonus.

Looking back, that movie was probably just okay, which by MCU/DCEU standards is a masterpiece. Never saw its predecessor.

That's how it is with the MCU Spiderman movies. They're fun to watch the first time, but they're extremely boring to rewatch. I loved Homecoming and Far From Home when I first saw them, but when I was rewatching them before No Way Home's release with my roommate, it was so boring.

[VBM]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

What about Guardians of the Galaxy?

[VBM]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Truly, the MCU will be remembered in the annals of film history in its rightful place beside Disney’s Star Wars and the Hobbit movies.

Horrible take. The first 3 phases of the MCU were pretty good, for the most part (with the first 2 Thor movies and the Iron Man sequels being the only duds). None of the Disney's Star Wars movies (except Rogue One) were good, and none of the Hobbit movies were good.

It's not a "take." It's an objective fact that those films took zero effort to write, storyboard, produce, film, or act in. They're the dumbest things ever to infest the theaters and they are enjoyed almost exclusively by an army of neckbearded man-children who collect Funko Pop dolls and will watch literally anything that has their favorite brand logo on the poster. Rogue One is also one of the worst films ever made, if not the absolute worst (relative to its budget).

The fact that you’re a lifetime sober really does show sometimes

[VBM]

The latest comic book movies underperformed because they were mediocre and featured B-level characters. If Guardians 3 is as good as expected then all this talk about comic book movie fatigue will look pretty silly, again.

That's the MCU's secret; they're always mediocre.

I'm frankly tired of all this snobbish criticism of the MCU. The same arrogant dismissal of genre movies has been the norm forever whether it was westerns and film noirs in the 40s and 50s, sci-fi and action movies in the 70's and 80's, or comic book movies in the 21st century.

Few considered Sergio Leone or John Wayne to be mediocre back in the day. And I don’t think that 2001: A Space Odyssey, Close Encounters, The Terminator, Alien, the original Predator, or even the original Star Wars (as overrated as that film is) were ever on the same level as the MCU.

And every film I named above was actually original. You know, as silly as something as the original Space Jam was (not the LeBeron one, the Jordan one from the 1990’s), atleast it was an original idea, albeit with existing characters and real life figures. That alone makes it better than most blockbusters released today. Such a movie would never be made today.

The worst thing about cinema since the 2010’s is the total lack of originality. Even the 2000’s had a great amount of original movies. But now? People are clamoring to watch Avatar and Top Gun sequels, that’s how un-original and derivative cinema is nowadays.

As more and more movies are made, it becomes harder to find an original idea that could actually land with the audience. Not every movie needs to be original anyways. Sometimes it’s nice to know what to expect from a movie

[VBM]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

Stop being a Marvel apologist.

Lol. I admit, while I don't hate that first Iron Man movie, I can't bring myself to watch it these days. It's become so tainted that I can't get anything out of it anymore.

I don't have a problem with it personally, but its impact on American culture has been so terrible that it isn't worth it. There are other good movies that have resulted in terrible things (Star Wars is a great example), but Iron Man ain't good enough in its own right to have been worth all that came later.

Lol, what terrible impact has it had on American culture?

[VBM]

We can only hope. But I still won't rest until every last copy of the MCU movies is tracked down and destroyed.

We can only hope! But can we spare the first Iron Man? I feel like that's probably the only MCU movie I'd rewatch willingly.

That film is responsible for the catastrophe that followed.

Yeah, but at least it feels like it's somewhat grounded in reality. It doesn't just throw Norse gods, space aliens, Russian spies, big green monsters, witches, mutants, WWII veterans, and magicians into one big disgusting melting pot. I honestly think it's impossible to like those Avengers movies unless you have some degree of ADHD.

Stop being a Marvel apologist.

Lol. I admit, while I don't hate that first Iron Man movie, I can't bring myself to watch it these days. It's become so tainted that I can't get anything out of it anymore.

I don't have a problem with it personally, but its impact on American culture has been so terrible that it isn't worth it. There are other good movies that have resulted in terrible things (Star Wars is a great example), but Iron Man ain't good enough in its own right to have been worth all that came later.

Lol, what terrible impact has it had on American culture?

The only cinema people enjoy now is crap associated with a recognizable brand. This is a direct result of the Marvel obsession.

Huh? People liking Marvel movies doesn't prevent them from liking good, original movies. No one's forcing you guys to watch Marvel movies, so I don't see why this is an issue. Just let people watch what they want to watch.

[VBM]

Dule, out of curiosity, do you think the declining originality in movies has anything to do with growing concentration in the entertainment industry? I don't have data to back it up nor do I even know how one would go about proving it, but it certainly seems relevant in that context, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that given your political views otherwise.

Yeah, Disney's gradual takeover of virtually every major IP is definitely part of it. Nowadays the only way to top the box office is with existing IP, and all those franchises are concentrated in a few studios.

I would say the bigger problem, however, is how expensive these movies are. If you're sinking $300 mil into the production budget alone, you need to approach a billion-dollar box office in order for the investment to be worth the time, advertising, and opportunity costs. When we're talking about figures of that magnitude, the incentive to experiment with original storylines and characters goes straight out the window. Studios will not invest that much money into something that doesn't have a preestablished market that they can count on, which is how we get soft reboots like Jurassic World and The Force Awakens all the time. Literally the only exception is Avatar, which only became possible because of one egomaniac multimillionaire's vision.

I think a lot of this trend has its roots in the failure of big-budget sci-fi movies in the late 2000s and early 2010s. Movies like John Carter and Jupiter Ascending did not have existing fanbases to count on (John Carter was a preestablished series, but how many Edgar Rice Burroughs fans are there today?), and when they bombed at the box office, studios got scared off from investing in big, original sci-fi and fantasy films.

What's so irritating about this is that for every Aquaman they produce, the studios could probably make six decent mid-budget films. But the average moviegoer only sees two or three movies per year, and the studio execs need to be sure that one of those movies will be theirs. So all the funding that could go towards mid-budget productions gets sucked up by these stupid tentpole blockbusters. This answers this dude's question:

Huh? People liking Marvel movies doesn't prevent them from liking good, original movies. No one's forcing you guys to watch Marvel movies, so I don't see why this is an issue. Just let people watch what they want to watch.

It's an issue because studios (no matter how big they are) have finite resources. Every megabudgeted remake is four or five quality films that'll never be produced. The cost just isn't worth it.

This is especially true for the increasingly desperate attempts to remake movies like Ben-Hur, Robocop, and Point Break, which always seem to end in box office disaster, but which studios still for some reason consider "safer" than original scripts. Ben-Hur (2016) had a budget higher than most Tarantino films. Think of all the movies that aren't getting made because the production companies are controlled by unimaginative corporate hacks who know nothing about storytelling. It's disgusting. My hope is that the success of movies like Everything Everywhere All At Once will make studios realize that there's still money and acclaim to be had in the mid-budget range. That movie operated on a budget 1/10th the size of that dumbass Ant-Man: Quantumania movie, and it earned its budget back easily, got rave reviews, and looked visually better than any movie Marvel has ever shat out. If Daniels can make a movie like that for $14 mil, there's no excuse whatsoever for how terrible these tentpole blockbusters are.

You’re assuming that if those mega budget sequels/remakes weren’t made, quality movies would made instead. The more likely alternative is that these new, “original” movies would also be garbage. As you said, the production companies are run by unimaginative hacks. The only reason why they’re making dumb remakes in the first place is because they can’t come up with anything new that they could profit off of.

Anyways, what are you proposing as the solution to this problem? Should the movie industry be nationalized so that we can stop for-profit companies from making low quality cash grabs? Should we throw people in jail for watching too many sequels/spin offs?