"Patria Potestas" and the idea of excusing injustice

[Earth]

I'm using the concept of Patria Potestas, "power of life and death" as a sort of jumping off point in discussing what we could consider morally reprehensible acts as being excusable because they occurred in the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_potestas

Patria Potestas, in a nutshell, gave fathers the ability to sell their children into slavery at least three times, and the right to abandon their handicapped newborns. We would, for the most part, cringe at such an idea taking hold in our current era, alongside democratic, inclusive, and multicultural norms we've taken up.

Personally, I feel we'd be in the right in condemning such acts, but from previous statements, on this forum, and others, there's a fair bit of leeway in excusing the Reprehensible by claiming 'product of the times'. For instance, on slavery; either diminishing it's reality, or ignoring it; cruel acts during wartime, punishments delivered by allegedly "archaic" judicial systems, cruelty towards animals and enemies of the state, etc, etc.

My question is how do you interpret such a justification for something that otherwise would be torn apart today at it's mere mention? What do you make of the excuse of "product of the times"? Is it a valid position, or a sort of doublethink?

As an aside, because I didn't fully include the concept of Patria Potestas, what are your impressions of it?

[Earth]

I thought you didn't believe in objective morality, so how can anything be right or wrong about it? In fact, what is the point in discussing it at all, if it is purely subjective?

When do people stop making value judgments because morality is subjective?

[Earth]

I thought you didn't believe in objective morality, so how can anything be right or wrong about it? In fact, what is the point in discussing it at all, if it is purely subjective?

Actually if anything he seems to be attacking that mindset. We've had people here defend people involved in slavery and apartheid here after all..

Partially, yes. One could justify heinous acts on the grounds that morality is subjective; ergo, do what thou wilt, but it's a pretty shallow argument. If one's morals mean nothing, then there's no reason to even have them.

But using the excuse that certain acts are products of their time, I haven't run across people who take that line of reasoning. If anything, their morality only comes into play if you ask them to interpret these acts in this time period, i.e. father having complete control over the family; they'd excuse it in the context of ancient Rome, but would probably find it reprehensible if that occurs now. I'm trying to find out what others feel about this 'product' line of reasoning.

[Earth]

My point on that issue has always been a rather simple one: it is stupid to say of a particular Roman that he was misogynist because he controlled the household. In the same way it is stupid to say of a particular slave-holder in the 18th century that he was racist. And so on.

And if he acted as if he were a misogynist, would that not make him one? Unless we know of how the particular slaveholder treated his slaves, it's irrelevant to my point. I'm pointing out that regardless of time period, one could still judge these people much the same way as if you'd judge one currently. Abolishionists were obviously philosophical forebearers to mainline thought about slavery today, and spoke their minds.

Earth, I know debating with you is impossible since you don't recognize the laws of logic or feel obliged to maintain the same position throughout the discussion.

What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have some sort of grudge against me? Whatever problem you have, take it to pm, and leave it out of the thread.

I can make value judgments even if they are subjective, but why would I discuss them?

If you feel this way, what's the point of speaking your mind at all?

[Earth]

I don't like it when someone behaves like you did in a debate. It is rather low, in my opinion. So I am not going to pretend as if it never happened. I haven't read many of your other posts so they naturally frame my opinion...

The way I acted? Do you know how frustrating it is to read post after post of mistaken impressions, and then being insulted? I left because of that, not anything to do with the discussion at hand. Whatever, water under the bridge. 

Your first paragraph I don't understand. You're saying that my point is irrelevant but you aren't saying why. If you are claiming that it is physically possible to judge people by the same standard I'm not disagreeing but I don't see an argument as to why that is reasonable.

For the simple fact that, for instance, pro-slavery ideology were criticized at the same time slavery was a dominant part of our culture. Why is the ability to judge beliefs and actions taken as if it has an expiration date?

What I found irrelevant is whether one is a good slaveowner or not. It misses the point that one could still obviously make a judgment about these sorts of people, i.e. those that engage in what society deems wrong now. This is what I wrote:

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What I find unreasonable is to take two examples of the same, or similar situations, and write one off because of the time that has passed, as if social dynamics, and culture have so changed that we have nothing to say about it.

Your last question I also don't really understand. I'm saying that it is pointless to discuss moral statements if they are subjective.

Why is it pointless?

You seem to think this implies that it is meaningless to "speak one's mind."...

I'm saying that to consider discussion off the table because something is subjective is in itself pointless, and irrational. In that case, how could we discuss much of what we do here on Atlas; religious views (orthodox or heterodox), political views, emotions, sexuality, etc.

[Earth]

These discussions about sexuality or whatever ARE usually pointless. They're not discussions. It's more about people being attention-whores or feeling the need to express themselves.

There's a big difference between you not thinking it's worth it, and it not being a discussion. Just because most sexuality threads on here devolve into "Who I'd fuck, and not" doesn't mean others are pointless.

A discussion needs at the very least an element of fact in order for it to lead anywhere. Simple emotive outbursts do not make for a discussion.

You're just moving the goalposts now. In order to satisfy your criteria for a meaningful discussion, you just discount what you don't like.

There's no difference between a discussion of sexuality that starts with "I feel...", and one of politics that starts the same way. You're using your own emotions, and intuitions to guide your political development, alongside more tangible reasons.

Do you really think that it is as bad to view black people as inferior in the 18th century as it is to do so today? That it says the same of those peoples' moral character?

Of course I do. What changed with black people to make it okay to view them as inferior in the 18th century compared to now?

I'd say it's even worse to view blacks, or whoever, as inferior then because of the amount of suffering that was socially acceptable to administer. You can still get away with virulent racism now, but you can't use it to justify the way you act towards them now. To make it clearer:

Now: "I believe in the righteousness of the white race", possible outcome: social ostracism, alienation, possible violence.

Then: "I believe in the righteousness of the white race", outcome: practically nothing. You could go and buy a slave, and treat them however you like.

The latter is infinitely more disturbing than former.

[Earth]

No, I'm not using my own emotions and intuitions.

See, usually in a philosophical discussion one applies the principle of benevolent interpretation. That is, you make what seems to be the most reasonable interpretation of what someone else says.

How could you divorce the way one feels from impacting a decision, or statement? You're not an analytical robot.

And you really have to quit this vagueness. "You're just moving the goalposts" - what does that even mean? I would prefer if you could, for once, specifically state what you disagree with instead of just casually dismissing my argument.

It's a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpost

I'm accusing you of it because, as I've said, In order to satisfy your criteria for a meaningful discussion, you just discount what you don't like.

Since your responses to my post are largely incomprehensible I will focus on the latter part. 

Oh please. I'm writing in clear, comprehensible English. It may not be your first language for all I know, but my posts are easy to follow. You may not understand, but it's not my fault.

You seem to think that if immoral behaviour leads to a positive outcome for the person performing the immoral act that person becomes more immoral. I don't really follow why that is.

Where did you get this idea from?

If I understand you correctly this would follow:

James gets told by everyone around him to murder Jill. He is encouraged by everyone to do it and is told that he will get a big reward if he does and get killed himself otherwise. So, reluctantly, he does.

John gets told by everyone around him not to murder Jill. He is discouraged by everyone to do it and is told that he will get a big reward if he does not and get killed himself if he does. Despite this, he kills her.

You seem to think that John is the more moral person of the two. I can't for my life understand why.

You obviously didn't understand my example of racism in my above post. To make it clearer, it was a response to your unusual post here:

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My point with the example is that tolerance of racism now, has lessened in the present age compared to the past, and that to consider blacks inferior then is even worse than to consider them inferior now, because of the opportunity to subjugate them was disturbingly present. Not that present day racism is something positive. I have made no mention of judging one's “moral character” as more, or less, or the same, or of a "positive outcome". I focused explicitly on racism, and it's cultural status.

Now, just to be clear, since I felt I made a mistake last time in not making this clear from the outset, I never heard anyone espouse this idea of yours. I never heard of a principle that would explain it. Since it is so odd you cannot really expect me to understand or accept it without considerable explanation. That's not an argument against it, but you can't just throw it out and expect me to get it without a clarification of your thinking.

Great! Neither have I, because I didn't say that. You have misinterpreted what I've written. Congratulations.

Back to something you've haven't answered, and is fairly important:

Do you really think that it is as bad to view black people as inferior in the 18th century as it is to do so today? That it says the same of those peoples' moral character?

Of course I do. What changed with black people to make it okay to view them as inferior in the 18th century compared to now?

[Earth]

I made the reasonable interpretation that you meant that it was worse to be a racist back then because there were no negative consequences for you. Since...that is what you said. The idea that it is better to act immorally if you are punished for it is an odd idea though.

I specifically said that it's worse to be racist back then because of the opportunity to cause harm to minorities on a much bigger scale than a racist can today. Meaning that while you could see opposition to your racism then, nothing would've stopped you from acquiring slaves, and viciously mistreating them. There were little consequences, but that was not the point of my post. You chose to run with your interpretation instead of recognizing what I was saying. I made no mention of immorality in that example, nor implied it, just painting a picture unlike the modern era.

It is possible, given your last post contradicting this one, that what you meant was actually that the society back then was less moral as a whole because it allowed for such horrible acts.

Again, I meant no such thing, and have never alluded to that. The only mention I had made of society was of a specific area of it, not society as a whole.

I assumed, however, that this was not the case since I specifically stated in my first post on the issue, where I explained my position, that I agreed that the cultures of those times were morally inferior but that I thought it odd to judge the individuals. Here it is:

I find it odd that you would concede that the culture of those times were morally inferior, but you draw the line at judging individuals. It's like saying Germany under the Third Reich was morally inferior, but stopping short of saying why, stopping short of judging the Nazis.

In this case, I would have to ask, how did you come to the conclusion that era X was morally inferior if you haven't judged acts within that time period.

And I addressed your point in post four of this thread.

But saying that I'm a better person than Thomas Jefferson because I don't own any slaves is kind of stupid, imo, since nothing says I wouldn't have owned slaves if I had grown up in his society.

I agree, except for the fact that I haven't centered this discussion around  who is “better”, but the justifications for said slavery. If we're going down the road of whose better, a or b, then first we have to place them into context, understand their justifications, and see if it bears weight. It's easy, and incorrect to say someone is better than someone else, but that says nothing to the fact that we can still judge them as if they were around today.

The question was precisely whether it makes sense to judge the same act equally harsh regardless of context, not about judging different acts over time.

Context offers insight, not automatic excuse for actions. We aren't judging different acts over time, but the same acts.

This is what I'm getting at; Why does this "judgment yardstick" change into excuses over a greater span of time, involving even more taboo acts, such as slavery, or homosexuality. The point of the thread is to understand this doublethink, excusing the same act in time period a, while condemning it in another time. 

….Furthermore, you still haven't explained how I moved the goalposts.

I made the statement that if there are no objective facts involved it is meaningless to discuss it. You claimed that I have moved the goalposts from that statement to exclude things I don't like. But I have not. I merely stated that the examples you mentioned were examples of what I meant.

By excluding parameters such as emotion, or other subjectivities because they undermine your idea of “discussions are useless unless they have objective facts”, you move the goalposts. I give you examples, and you disregard them, when in all actuality these things are a meaningful part of discussions.

It is also ironic because if anyone has a history of moving the goalposts it is actually you, since you tend to abandon your position for the opposite one once disproven, just like you seem to be doing right now with your claim regarding morality relative to its incentives.

Let's be honest; you killed the last discussion on account of not understanding what constitutes subjectivity and objectivity, and you made no case for an objective morality at all, so let's not have a repeat of that.

Anyway, you asked me a question. Not surprisingly, it was a loaded question with false premises.

I asked what has changed with black people because your question implied it was not as bad to view them as inferior in the 18th century compared to today. Here is your question:

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I will give you an example though that may explain my point. Back in the days a lot of people (supposedly, anyway) thought the Earth was flat. That was wrong. If someone told me they thought that today I would think them an idiot.

But saying that Aristotle or Julius Caesar were idiots for thinking the Earth was flat, is stupid and a little bigoted. Not because the Earth has changed, because it has not. And not because it was right to think so back then either. But because the conditions changed making the judgement a little different.

It obviously boils down to context; that's not something that I would argue against seeing as though they believed as far as their information allowed. You'd have a point if I were flatly accusatory towards people I believe were/are wrong, or if this discussion came down to information at hand, but it doesn't.

What the issue comes down to is, why exactly we'd excuse subjugation in one era, and condemn the same in our own. These issues, like misogyny, and slavery, don't come down to information as the issue of the shape of the earth does.

Whether this is a correct example is not relevant, of course. You could take any historically common false belief.

It's not relevant whether or not your example is correct in this discussion? I'd say it is relevant. Historical beliefs aren't created equally, particularly when they can cause such suffering, which is where morality and ethical behavior now comes in.