Is Islam a threat to the West?

[Earth]

No, because it's not Islam that has caused trouble; western action, and radicalization is.

[Earth]

No, because it's not Islam that has caused trouble; western action, and radicalization is.

But hasn't the west "caused trouble" all over the third world?

Yes it has.

I'm not saying we don't deserve some of the blame, we do, but I think some of the clergy encouraging the nutters on the ground deserve a lot more of it (and the nutters themselves of course).  Do we blame all drivers every time there is an oil spill?  Do we blame potheads in Chicago for violence in northern Mexico?

Why on earth would you think I don't support blaming clergy, too? You think by implicating the west, it leaves the burden, all of it, on our shoulders? You say this as if you have absolutely no interest in CIA operations over the last fifty some odd years.

Really, it's just kind of sad, and reactionary to be all "whadddabout' the other guy!?"

[Earth]

k...so what about the places we've screwed up that ARE NOT terrorist asshats today.  You seemed to have missed that part.  Why aren't people from Namibia blowing sh**t up?  If we've been dicking people over for the past 500 years, which I totally agree that we have, why aren't more of them so pissed at us that they're blowing sh**t up?

You're glossing over the cultural differences, as well as the immense political ones. Different groups, with different makeup react in different ways to what ails them. Simply because they're Muslims doesn't mean they'll all radicalize, and commit to destroying America. At worst, it's racist, at best, it's just an oversimplification, and I very much doubt you're a racist. At it's heart, this fundamentalism versus Islamic moderation comes down to interpretation, and the way it spreads, and holds on in a particular culture.

Lets play a game...the next 1000 people to die from asshat terrorists, lets find out the religion of the asshats...any guess who 99% of them will pray too?  You are saying Islam isn't to blame that western asshattery is, I'm pointing out that we've spread our asshattery around to a lot of people, yet only one demographic is blowing sh**t up.

Yes, one specific demographic that has managed to exploit the situation, and commit to a radicalized interpretation of Islam. I'd have to throw your old question in your face if you genuinely think it's Islam that's the catalyst, and not Western foreign policy; then why aren't more Muslims from around the globe engaged in violent fundamentalist struggle? Doctrinal issues.

AND they blow each other up a lot more than they blow us up, is that our fault too?

It very well could be. A response to western aggression, to western ingratiation, isn't only going to come out towards the West, but also those perceived as internal enemies.  Muslims killing other Muslims isn't new by any stretch of the imagination, but in the current climate, the West has more to bear than the mythical chaos of Islam as an organized religion. It would be like saying doctrine is the sole motivation of the struggle in Northern Ireland; that Christianity is to blame.

[Earth]

(even though everyone knows Islam is not a race!)

And yet no one thinks Albanian when they hear the word Muslim!

Nice try, Office.

[Earth]

I'm not saying Christianity is better than Islam.  I'm not saying everybody that is Muslim is blowing sh**t up.  I'm saying that there is something in the religion that tends to make certain types of people very willing to blow sh**t up.  Ignoring that fact and placing the majority of blame on the west comes across, to me at least, as a cop out.

I don't think it's a cop out at all, I think overall, the west doesn't get serious blame, but like everything else co-oped by centrist, comfortable liberals, it's become a cliche, but still close to the truth. It's not a cop out so long as the burden still comes down to those willing to exploit religion in order to get their demands met. "The west fu*ked you up in some ways, but get a grip", to put it lightly.

I don't necessarily think it's something within the religion, but within it's cultural elements that subsume religion. It's the environment that instills this radicalization, and religion is pinned to it. It's a framework developed with the tools one has; the response to political repression, poverty (for those radicals that aren't actually well off engineering students!), occupation; the religious will most likely attempt to find a rationale within the ideas he holds firmly to believe.

I.e. abortion clinic bombers, or murderers of doctors; the impetus for this extreme pro-life stance doesn't come from the religion, but externals, and religion is subsumed into it. One's ideology is shaped by new ideas, but also by the ones they already have, to make sense of new information.

And I think we really aren't as far apart here as would seem.  We both agree that western intervention plays a part, I just think it's a much smaller part.

Neither of us know the true extent, but yeah, I agree.

[Earth]

I brought up race because it's an important factor in anti-muslim xenophobia. No frightened american, or for that matter western european, is going to think of white muslims, but of the 'brown hoard' or the asians, either 'invading' their country, or trying to attack it.

[Earth]

How does that negate what I've said? Because it is the "browns" that come over, or move to europe, and they're the ones doing engaging in violence, makes the racial issue disappear? I don't see how it does, or that Islam as a whole is held responsible.

[Earth]

Why would race even be the variable?