Why I am Pro-Choice

[dazzleman]

So you're pissed that the only women that will give you the time of day have kids, so you think they should be aborted. That's easily the worst pro-choice argument I've ever heard.

^^^^^
It also seems ineffective, since the availability of abortion doesn't seem to be helping Flyers anyway.

It is a horribly callous and immoral argument.

[dazzleman]

So you're pissed that the only women that will give you the time of day have kids, so you think they should be aborted. That's easily the worst pro-choice argument I've ever heard.

^^^^^
It also seems ineffective, since the availability of abortion doesn't seem to be helping Flyers anyway.

It is a horribly callous and immoral argument.

Calling me callous for being concerned about babies born with birth defects and unfit parents.  You know you right wingers are so hypocritical.  Calling yourselves "pro-life" and advocating a "culture of life."  You don't care what happens after the a baby's born just as long as they get there.  Well folks what is the opposite of a "death tax", yep you guessed it a "birth tax."  You guys just need bodies from poor families to go off a fight your wars because you know that normally unwanted children are the first to go off to war.  You also know that kids from single parents are also the first to go and least likely to go to college.  If this is your "culture of life" then I want no parts of it. 

Your view of things is pretty wharped, Flyers.  One day you may realize just how wharped, and be embarrassed by it.

[dazzleman]

Just because I don't agree with you I'm somehow wharped?  Maybe I have seen different things in my life than you.  Maybe I analyze different things than you, I don't know. 

Flyers, I say this with all respect.  It is not that you disagree with me, or anybody else, but the argument that you make.  If you think conservatives oppose abortion because they want bodies to fight wars, you are so sadly mistaken.  Your vehemence in favor of something that most people, even many supporters of at least partially legalized abortion, find to be distasteful and a necessary evil is also unsettling.

What did they do to you in Catholic school that you feel the need to go out of your way to adopt a highly immoral/amoral posture?  It's not really that you support abortion, but your attitude and reasons.

[dazzleman]

Just because I don't agree with you I'm somehow wharped?  Maybe I have seen different things in my life than you.  Maybe I analyze different things than you, I don't know. 

Flyers, I say this with all respect.  It is not that you disagree with me, or anybody else, but the argument that you make.  If you think conservatives oppose abortion because they want bodies to fight wars, you are so sadly mistaken.  Your vehemence in favor of something that most people, even many supporters of at least partially legalized abortion, find to be distasteful and a necessary evil is also unsettling.

What did they do to you in Catholic school that you feel the need to go out of your way to adopt a highly immoral/amoral posture?  It's not really that you support abortion, but your attitude and reasons.

Give me a better reason why you guys are so pro-fetal rights and could really care less after birth.  At least pro-life Dems (minus Zell MIller et al.)are consistent.

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

[dazzleman]

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

A little angry today, are we?  Oh, what am I thinking, that's your usual state of affairs.  Maybe it's time to increase the dosage a little bit.

[dazzleman]

Thank you!  Gee, some of you guys have your penises inserted pre-maritally as well yet you want to put the undue burden on the woman.  At least people like me know I can't take of of the kid and allow a woman to rectify the situation if needed.  Personal responsbility- good one dazzleman!

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

Flyers, you really are a nitwit.  And amoral too.

[dazzleman]

Oh, now the name calling.  Gee how much older are you than I?  Good one again!

Flyers, I think I told you this before.  You aggressively reject the concept of any type of morality.  I'm not necessarily 100% pro-life, but your reasons for supporting abortion are appalling.  I mean that seriously, and don't mean to name call, just point out the truth.  You are on a totally different wavelength when it comes to moral issues, and let's just say that if I supported abortion strongly, your arguments in favor of it would make me rethink my opinion.

[dazzleman]

No, he's simply the result of a society that can't accept responsibility for their actions. Plus, like a few other left wingers on here, he's very angry.

Well, you're right.  He's a bitter guy and it shows up in his political views.

[dazzleman]

personal responsibility....it's a concept most liberals reject vehemently

Bullsh**t. You voted for a President who had a DWI, did inside trading, and has ran numerous companies into the ground. He started a war for no good reason, and turned $87 billion a year surpluses into $600 billion a year deficits. Personal responsibility does not apply to Republicans.

A little angry today, are we?  Oh, what am I thinking, that's your usual state of affairs.  Maybe it's time to increase the dosage a little bit.

Actually, he raises a fair point, and I'm surprised you haven't addressed it.

This thread isn't about the Iraq war or any of that other stuff.  Jfern is a broken record who inserts the same garbage into every argument, no matter what the subject.  There's no reason to address it since it has no place here.  And I find it funny how liberals who are usually brimming over with compassion for violent criminals think a 25-year-old DWI charge against a man who quit drinking 15 years ago is relevant.

[dazzleman]

Oh, now the name calling.  Gee how much older are you than I?  Good one again!

Flyers, I think I told you this before.  You aggressively reject the concept of any type of morality.  I'm not necessarily 100% pro-life, but your reasons for supporting abortion are appalling.  I mean that seriously, and don't mean to name call, just point out the truth.  You are on a totally different wavelength when it comes to moral issues, and let's just say that if I supported abortion strongly, your arguments in favor of it would make me rethink my opinion.

I think we all have different concepts of "morality."  I guess I aggressively reject yours, not necessarily morality in general.  These are just a part of why I'm pro-choice.  I do not support abortion 100% either.  I oppose partial-birth except for the life and physical health of the mother.  I have seen situations where kids had birth defects because of a careless mother, have seen grandparents with extra burdens because their kids are stupid and still getting smashed, have seen college careers interrupted due to unwanted pregancies, have seen how children from single parents are raised, and have come across women who were told by some clown that they are loved, get them pregnant, then leave them.  I think they are valid reasons to support a woman's right to choose.  In some cases, I am also going to say I actually encourage it.  I know it may sound callous, but I have to take all factors into consideration here.  My mother teaches in a poor inner city neighborhood.  A student actually said to her "I'd rather be aborted."  This kid is raised by grandparents who are ill and has to run for a cocaine dealer to make ends meet.  You, Jake, or Phil may find me appalling, but I find someone has to air out the appalling truths of our society that people like you, Jake, or Phil like to cloister yourselves behing a cross and act like they don't exist and everyone should just pick themselves up by their bootstraps.  

I understand the problems many of these kids face because of their horrible parents.  Abortion is very practical, and could sometimes be thought to be the best of several bad options.  I don't dispute that, nor have I explicitly argued against the study that says that legalized abortion has lowered crime.

One thing I've learned over time is subtlety.  You can do a lot more if you don't tell everybody what you're doing with a loudspeaker.  Not all issues are black and white.  It's one thing to reluctantly condone something you know is wrong in theory because it could produce a better result in practice.  It's another to celebrate doing it.  You seem to say that abortion must be celebrated, when really all most people are willing to do is reluctantly condone abortion.

Another thing I find interesting is your recognition of problems like single parenthood.  Many liberals aggressively reject this line of thinking, and argue that children of single parents experience far more problems across the board than children with two parents because society gives insufficient support to single parents.

There are many people who should not have children.  As you have noted, not all of them choose to have abortions.  You seem to be arguing almost in favor of mandatory abortion for certain people, or you're just one small step away from it.  And let me tell you -- when I see some these people, I could almost agree, at least with forcible sterilization if not abortion.

I don't know what the answer is to these problems.  We rewarded this type of behavior for so long through well-meaning but misguided liberal welfare programs like AFDC.  I also think there is a link between the expansion of this behavior and the rejection of personal responsibility that I have seen you manifest.  The people that you describe in your post are the poster children for rejection of personal responsibility.

At the very least, I think state governments should consider more aggressive removal of children from unfit parents, since obviously all these types of people have not chosen abortion, as you have hoped they would.

[dazzleman]

I gotta say dazzleman, that was an excellent post.  I have also seen firsthand the excessiveness of AFDC and lots of "baby daddies" as a result.  I strongly agree with the DLC on this issue being that it should still exist, but clamp down on the abuses.  Some people have lots of kids just to get benefits then in turn neglect the kids AFDC was meant to help.  A case of this was the Jackson boys being starved from South Jersey.  I am for personal responsibilty in this aspect but when it comes to abortion I am failing to see Jake's point.   

The whole "baby daddy" thing is sickening.  Many liberals are reluctant to condemn this because they don't want to be seen as racist.  It's just pathetic.  It is more racist to encourage a practice that continues to condemn large numbers of blacks to a miserable life than it is to speak out against it.

I am a realist, and I think there are basically 3 types of people in society.  There are people who will do the right thing no matter what, people who will do the wrong thing no matter what, and people who will respond to the incentives that are provided.  We have unfortunately expanded greatly the number of people doing the wrong thing in a misguided attempt at moral neutrality, as a way to try to help people who refuse to do the right thing under any circumstances.  We now have a 70% illegitimacy rate among blacks, which is devastating to blacks themselves, but also to our cities and the nation overall.  And you yourself acknowledge the results of this situation, very much to your credit.

We have to find a way to make doing the wrong thing -- in this case having children irresponsibly out of wedlock -- as unattractive as possible so that all but those most determined to do the wrong thing will avoid it.

I just don't see an answer in continuing positive incentives to do the wrong thing, and then kidding ourselves into thinking legal abortion is the answer to this problem.  In my opinion, the mindset behind the aggressive support of legal abortion is the same mindset behind irresponsible childbearing in many ways, and that's why I was so critical of the way you presented your pro-abortion arguments. 

And BTW, even if I don't fully agree with you, the inner city situation you describe is a much more compelling reason to keep abortion as an option than the expectation that the availability of abortion will make it easier for you to get laid.

[dazzleman]

I've been called both a racist and a "white libbo" in the same day by different people.  It's all how they interpret what I say.  I has also made me more aggressive in what comes out of my mouth and the fact I could care less how people think.  I know people will call me racist for just saying "baby daddies", but what do I care.  I know MANY African Americans who deplore that lifestyle and a few who partake in it.  There are also whites who do the same thing.  Race should never be implied in this, but it is a unfortunate fact of our society that it is.

The reason I described in my first post is not the primary reason why I'm pro-choice, just one of the 'sub-reasons' I guess.  I should have said "use birth control" rather than abortion.  I tend to fly off the handle at times and I'll admit it.  Look, I have many frustrations in my life at this point and like it or not it drives my politics.           

Dude, on the "baby daddy" issue, I think you're absolutely right, and I hope you keep standing up for your opinions.

The amount of racial animosity that is out there is staggering, even if much of it is latent and dormant most of the time.  This week, I caught two black guys coming to break into my house.  They had apparently cased it, and expected me not to be home, but I was home sick that day and surprised them.

Just about everybody that I told about the incident reacted in racial terms.  The reactions ranged from relatively mild -- "naturally, they were black, what would you expect" or "now if they get arrested they'll claim we're profiling them" -- to -- "those f**king black ni**ers" followed by a long tirade on how lazy and stupid and violent blacks are, and how all their problems are their own fault.  Many of these comments were from people who rarely if ever mention hostility to blacks under normal circumstances.

There is a great deal of anger at blacks because of what is perceived as their irresponsible behavior, and the cost of that behavior to society.  Until this legitimate issue is addressed, the race issue will continue to be a major fault line in our society.

[dazzleman]

Well thanks for recognizing I'm not a total liberal.  I consider my politics on the left end of the DLC.  One of my favorite politicans is my former Congressman Joe Hoeffel who gives a lot of credence to the issues I just mentioned.  He was also a strong deficit hawk, which I liked and IMO I would have liked him to replace Bob Casey if Casey weren't doing so well at this point.  Hey, if I were in elected office I would get nailed both "left and right", I know it.  He caught a lot of sh!t from ultra-liberal blogs for his stances on Section 8 and welfare reform.  Keystone Phil, who also lives in the district, doesn't give me nor him much credit there so thanks.

I'll also give credence to your argument that there is a "fault line" on racial issues in this country.  People of every race are to blame.  At my mom's school Latinos and blacks hate each other.  Racism crosses many lines and it sucks.  People like Kayne West, Al Sharpton, John Street, and Maxine Waters are just as bad as David Duke and them leaders of various white supremacy groups.  I also applaud people like Barack Obama for trying to patch that "fault line." 

I'll also own up to the fact that I have used the "n-bomb" out of frustration when I used to commute to Temple University every day.  I do notice that blacks like to causally walk out into the street, with them not having the light, as your driving and a few times I've had to slam my brakes.  I've shouted it out of frustration, but then recanted saying to myself, "not all of them, just that asshole."  Call me a guilty liberal I guess.   

Hah, having them cross slowly in front of your car is the least of your problems.  Try finding two of them on your property ready to break in, while you're alone in the house.

I was talking to one of my friends today, who is very liberal, and he said, "I'm no racist, but I recognize the reality that while it's OK to have 3 or 4 middle class black families in a neighborhood, once you get too many more, the crime rate starts going up and the quality of life goes down."

We need to start admitting this problem and addressing it, rather than calling anybody who mentions it racist.

And you're right about those racist incendiary blacks that you mention.  They are just as bad as the David Duke types.

I also see a fault line developing between hispanics and blacks.  As some hispanics get more money, the first thing they do is pull as far away from blacks as possible.  In a couple more generations, they'll hold blacks in the same low regard that most whites do.  The whole thing is very sad, but I get tired of hearing that it's all the fault of white people.  It isn't.

[dazzleman]

I have your friend's sentiments almost exactly.  I also know that there are mixed-race neighborhoods in Philadelphia that are doing quite well such as Mt. Airy or Chestnut Hill.  Thing with NE Philly, moreso the lower parts,  is you have very belligerent whites and the blacks moving in generally bring the ghetto up with them.  A lot of it is because the homes are cheaper and more convertible to Section 8 housing.  We have had our share of minor race riots and tensions as a result.  I have also come across a lot of excellent black neighbors who wanted to leave the ghetto themselves and I don't blame them.  Some whites automatically assume when a black family moves on the block it's Section 8 and there's going to be problems.  In a good number of cases, these people have eaten their words.  However, as I mentioned before with Section 8, you start with a black family moving on the block, a few hardnosed racist whites cry like hell and put their houses up for sale then move to South Jersey, then property values go down, then the homeowner who may have his house paid for figures he's better giving it to Section 8 then the problems just domino and more long time residents frantically put their houses up for sale then head for the suburbs or Far NE Philly.       

Yes, the Section 8 housing is a big problem.  Section 8 will destroy any neighborhood.

My opinion is that blacks should be doing what the Irish did.  Upwardly mobile Irish, realizing that trashy Irish were holding them back, divided themselves into lace curtain and shanty Irish, and the lace curtain Irish shamed and shunned the shanty Irish.

Blacks who do this would of course be called Uncle Toms.  And yet, good upwardly mobile honest blacks are carrying a very heavy burden due to the terrible reputation of lowlife blacks, and their failure or refusal to disassociate themselves from their lowlife "brothers" on a large enough scale.

[dazzleman]

I really don't know if my ancestors were lace curtain or shanty Irish.  Now you have me guessing.  You are right though, blacks who are upwardly mobile tend not to disassociate themselves from the ghetto. 

Hah, how could you not know that?

Very few Irish will own up to being shanty anyway.  But most Irish have some shanty in their background.  My ancestors of Irish descent were lace curtain on one side, and a mix of lace curtain and shanty on the other.

Most Irish don't recognize this, because we tend to black out the unpleasant parts of our history rather than obsess on them constantly like some people, but it's amazing how similar blacks and Irish are in many ways.

Both came from an exploitive, semi-feudal system that denied basic rights, and provided excuses for failure.  Both have suffered from a large incidence of substance abuse, drugs in the case of blacks and alcoholism in the case of the old Irish.  Both had a weak family structure, with most black families today lacking fathers, and many Irish families having lacked a real father figure due to alcoholism, which put the family into poverty because the alcoholic father was unable to provide, either financially or emotionally.

The fact that the Irish have largely overcome this gives me some hope for blacks, but I don't see any real progress being made with the current strategy that is being followed.

[dazzleman]

After my grandmother seen Angela's Ashes, she actually compared her family to that movie so I guess there's shanty Irish in there.  Another interesting note is that most of my grandfather's brothers were Republicans while he was a staunch union, but VERY socially conservative and religious Democrat.  My father was also a Democrat himself and we struggled financially in the 1980s, but got pissed at Clinton for passing NAFTA and the 1992 Convention where pro-lifers were basically shunned from the party so now he's GOP.  So if anything I should be sympathetic to pro-lifers, but you may be asking why I'm not.  Reason is my father is extremely self-imposing on his morality, it gets quite annoying and I guess I lash here a little too much especially against Keystone Phil.   

Back in the time you're talking about, Democrats were more socially conservative than Republicans.

My grandfather held office as a Democratic judge.  Among his rulings were that a teacher could strike a pupil, and that school official could search students' lockers.  He was a social conservative for sure; he'd make me look like a flaming liberal.  I don't know his economic views.  I think his ties to the Democratic party were emotional and traditional -- he was the son of an Irish immigrant, and the Democrats were the "right" party to be.  He was also a major alcoholic, as were six of the nine brothers and sisters he had.

My mom decided to rebel against her background, and she did so by being a non-alcoholic and a Republican.   Much of the family has switched to the Republican party since the 1960s.  Many were initially "Reagan Democrats" or even "Nixon Democrats" and my mom was one of the first to flat-out drop the Democrats and switch to the Republicans.  And she never had a kind word to say about any Democratic politician, except her father, from that day forward.

My grandmother's father was assassinated in the New York city bar that he owned, we think by British agents due to his support for the IRA.  This happened in 1920.  My grandmother always lied about how her father died, and never discussed Irish politics once that I can remember.  Even when there were periodic flare-ups in violence in Ireland, she betrayed no interest in any of it, if she in fact had any interest.

My mom was about the same, maybe more so.  She was completely disassociated from the history of the Irish in the US, even claiming never to have heard of New York's Hell's Kitchen until she was in her 40s. (She grew up in an upper middle class New York suburb.)

The Irish make a very interesting case study.  Boston Irish are even more interesting than New York Irish, because they dominate there in a way that Irish in New York never dominated.  The Irish determined to become like their WASP tormenters in order to live the life the WASPs lived, the life they wanted.  And they have largely achieved this; today, there is almost no distinction, except among the most snooty, between upper middle class and wealthy Irish and other Anglo-Saxons.  In doing so, the Irish have largely denied and thrown away their past oppression, and most would scoff if anybody ever mentioned it.

This is the exact opposite of blacks, and even Jews.  Jews remain very cognizant of their past suffering, which over time was probably much greater than that suffered by the Irish.  And Jews use this past suffering to goad them on to great success in life, for the most part.  Blacks are also very cognizant of their past (and in many cases, continuing) suffering, but have been more likely than Jews to use it as an excuse for failure rather than a motive for success.  I wish we could change that.

[dazzleman]

Hehe, I tend to shun my ancestors' socially conservative ways a bit.  Compared to my father and grandfather, I am a flaming liberal socially and even you would be compared to my dad.  Another interseting note is my great uncle, a prominent alumnus of my HS, tried to block former Sen. John Heinz (R-PA) from speaking at my high school's Communion breakfast in 1980 for his pro-choice views.  My HS also blocked Ed Rendell from speaking at a Celtic Festival.  I of course condone neither action even though the first was my own great uncle. 

One thing with the Philly Irish is a lot became Republicans until WWII.  They more or less wanted to cooperate with the machine in place rather than challenge it.  I really don't know much about Philadelphia political history, but I do know it was machine Republican until WWII.  Even Herbert Hoover won Philadelphia in 1932, but Dems haven't lost the city since. 

One thing I give the Jews a lot of credit for locally is they tend to be the least racist among whites.  Catholics in my area tend to be more racist, homophobic, and of course to my chagrin anti-choice.  I really don't know why exactly, but my best guess is their past sufferings themselves.  I also find they are overwhelmingly pro-choice and a huge part of the reason Allyson Schwartz won NE Philly.  Some of the Catholic neighborhoods supported Melissa Brown who is a pro-choice WASP, wealthy, yet brings up Section 8 and all of a sudden she's a hero.  She also told NE Philly residents in 2002 (to Phil's denial) that Joe Hoeffel was endorsed by Al Sharpton and it almost worked.   

Jews have a special identification with oppressed people because they have been severely oppressed in the past.  Most Christians simply don't share that experience.  Jews were very strongly represented in the civil rights movement.

But don't kid yourself into thinking that most Jews actually want to be integrated with blacks in practice.  They don't.  On that score, they're no different than any other whites.  My mom's neighborhood growing up was mostly Jewish, and when they integrated the city's high school (there was a well-off white side of town and a poor black side of town, and they formerly had separate high schools), they ran out just as fast as everybody else.  It is behavior like that among self-professed liberals that has given me my deeply held cynicism about the sincerity of liberals' views on race, integration, etc.

[dazzleman]

Most Jews tend to have my points of view on race.  I'll admit I am merely a moderate liberal, not an ultra-liberal.  I gotta give J.J. a lot of credit for where he lives because I wouldn't want to be within a 3 mile radius unless it's Temple University itself.  Yeah, I am a liberal who will own up to the fact I want to be in a white or mixed neighborhood. 

I also tend to have a liking for Jewish pols as you can see in my signature.  I don't know why, it's not intentional and it actually took me a while to figure that out.  One stereotype that Jews have which fits me quite well I am stingy with money and expect the government to be the same way.

I can't say I share your affinity for Jewish politicians.

[dazzleman]

I can't say I share your affinity for Jewish politicians.

Got Norm Coleman.  I hate that prick.

I like him.  I didn't know he was Jewish.  A lot of times, I don't know whether a politician is Jewish or not.  It's just not a question that is in the forefront of my thoughts.

[dazzleman]

I like women who have never reproduced, of course.  Who wouldn't?  But I must admit that for certain reasons of.. ahem.. fit.. I do like those that have.  MILFs I gess they're called nowadays.  Anyway, it is kind of nice physically if they have burst their seedpod.. but I certainly agree with Flyers you wouldn't want to see the little brats around.

HIGH FIVE!

Flyers, you're now proving John Ford right, again.

[dazzleman]

I'm not surprised at Flyers' reasoning to support abortion, in facts he's never kept it a secret that his ideology is essentially a vehicle to try and get women to have sex with him.  He supports abortion because it provides an easy way out of pregnancies he might cause, prevents promiscuous single women from those pesky stretch marks, and he thinks it makes him seem pro-woman enough to get a DLC girl.

How's the strategy working out for you Flyers?  Oh.  Right.  I forgot you're still hitless on the season.

All Flyers bashing aside, it should be noted that his reasoning is not at all unusual for pro-choce people.  As Chris Rock has said, abortion rallies are great places to pick up women, "becuase you know they're ing."  Morality of convenience, they call it.  A recent poll in California shows that younger people are far more likely than older people to oppose a proposed law that would require parental notification for minors seeking an abortion.  I wonder why 20-somethings want easy acces to abortion while parents of teenage daughters don't?  Not hard at all to figure out, actually.

However, just because Flyers' position is commonplace does not make it any less reprehensible, illogical, and selfish.

I agree with you.  As I said earlier, the logic Flyers gave for supporting abortion is nothing short of appalling, and brings him great discredit, though he seems not to recognize that.  The only person who seems to agree with him is opebo, and that is pretty damning for his position, though he seems not to recognize that either.