SENATE RESOLUTION: The Vice President Election Amendment (Failed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President.

Sponsor: Vern1988
Senate Designation: SR 2022

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The sponsor has 24 hours to commence advocacy, and Senators have an addition 48 hours to post their initial comments, concerns and questions.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

#Everybody wants Reform, but no one wants your reform

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You guys have it backwards.

Separate election of the Vice Presidency empowers third parties because people will have to earn their votes on the issues they care about, as opposed to just plucking someone on the ticket.

 

I urge the Senate to not support this amendment as it would harm very important and long standing institutions in this game. Parties seeking coalitions with each other is precisely what keeps minor parties alive, which is why I’m not supporting this and I ask my friends in the Senate to do the same. The current system works tremendously and we should not be changing it.

A tradition that is built around and assumes that the Vice Presidency can be a throwaway position for the sake of political gain.

That is not the case, the Vice Presidency is a position that is vital to the functioning of Congress and therefore canddiates for it should stand on their own merit, experience and activity.

Everyone always complained that the VP had nothing to do, now it has plenty to do, but as you go down that rabit hole having the VP actually do its primary job of managing Congress, it becomes more and more vital that people are elected to that position based on their merit in performing the role, not because they are a political boss that controls a couple of key swing votes.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also just because you run separately from each other, you could still easily form alliances with a third party via a cross endorsement.


Say Labor runs for President and a Peace candidate for VP, they could cross endorse each other, even though they aren't on the same ticket and have a similar effect.

This third party's will be harmed narrative is a complete red herring.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also just because you run separately from each other, you could still easily form alliances with a third party via a cross endorsement.


Say Labor runs for President and a Peace candidate for VP, they could cross endorse each other, even though they aren't on the same ticket and have a similar effect.

Right! If a party doesn't have the votes to win the President race, what are they going to do to get more votes? Reach out to smaller parties to get them votes via VP

Cross endorsement used to happen all the time between major parties much less smaller ones.

I carried the JCP endorsement several times and even got Labor's official endorsement against Maxwell.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I strongly encourage my colleagues not to make this about partisanship and who would gain what from a given election to try and discern whether this is beneficial or not.

It simply comes down to this, direct election for a position that has an important job to do on its own and thus deserves the people making the choice directly as opposed to an afterthought on voting for a ticket, in which the selection is often made based on who controls the most votes and not always based on who is most qualified to have the job.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

It isn't for the purposes of checks and balances necessarily, but it could be to some extent the case.

The main difference between the PPT/Speaker in their roles and the President of Congress (VP) is that the former are largely responsible for their own chambers while the PoC is responsible for both taking the end product of each chamber and then dispensing what thus becomes the end product of Congress as a whole, namely Acts of Congress and Joint Resolutions.

The President of Congress also handles the executive branch's personnel, and thus administers the confirmation hearings. Depending on the rules of either chamber, they can also be tasked with executive branch led initiatives like the budget where the PoC is presently tasked in both chambers with administering debates on the budget resolution (Slot 16).

You could make the case that the President of Congress could be selected by a Joint session of Congress. There are downsides to that as well and my preference is that it be elected by the people, which it currently is mind you, it is elected as part of a ticket with the President. Rather then fundamentally shifting that dynamic and taking away the power to elect the VP from the People, we are empowering the people to be able to make an independent decision on the VP based on its own merits as opposed to an afterthought.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

If the goal is to elect the President of Congress to be an administrative position than make it clear the elected VP is not part of the Presidential executive.   

Were that done, we might as well transition the VP fully to be "President of the Congress" and fill presidential vacancies by special election, with the VP/PotC serving as interim president (as in France).

I also pushed this as a counter proposal the last time Lumine pushed to abolish the VP.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

At that point, we might as well abolish the VP position and make the President Pro Tempore or Speaker of the House interim president.

Yes but in the context of the situation at present though, this would be counter productive. At present the VP provides that crucial umbrella Congress administrator that keeps things moving in the forward direction (to the President's) desk. The whole purpose in separate election would be to have elections focused on their merits.

And yes to Fhtagn's point, that is indeed a risk that people will vote based on other metrics, but that would hardly be novel or exclusive to the position of VP and one could argue that such affects the Presidential elections itself and we have suffered at times because of it. The difference is that if a President gets in on celebrity and does a bad job, you can run against them directly and make the case against them and hopefully they win in such circumstances (democracy is about representing the people and people are imperfect so democracy is imperfect after-all).

However if a VP were to be in a similar situation you would have to make an indirect case against the President on the basis that his VP sucked and then try and convince people that he should be voted out because his VP sucked, a much harder case to make.

To get back to your point though, just abolishing the position of VP because the succession is changed, doubles back and illustrates the very problem we have of people not currently valuing the VP for the role the VP does and rates as primary the intangible and discretionary (by the President) aspect of his job, ie the relationship to the President, compared to his constitutionally defined role in the legislative branch.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Also since it was brought up, and I frankly expected it sooner, the role of the VP in the executive branch and his classification of such when his primary defined job is in Congress.

Remember this, people often confuse separation of powers with Checks and balances, and think that both require each other to be completely separate in different grain silos so to speak. That is not how checks and balances work, checks and balances rest interdependence of the branches.

I would also point out that for several years, including several pre-reset and all of them post-reset, we have operated under a doctrine known as "Semi-Presidential" or if you look at it the reverse, "Semi-Parliamentary". The meaning of this is that the cabinet members, at least the major policy ones like SoS and SoIA can be sitting members of congress.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We certainly need to address VP vacancies now that Lumine has mentioned that.

As to the other aspects like succession of the Presidency and the name of the VP being changed, and don't get me wrong, I do like them but I would just note that every additional modification to the existing status quo, provides yet another off ramp for someone to get off the yes highway.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well this discussion really died.


We need to discuss  the vacancy situation for the VP as it relates to this Constitutional Amendment.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I support Vern's proposal

As do I. I might widen the window where the replacement VP is appointed rather than elected and/or just have the PPT fill in, but really Vern's idea is fine.

How much would you widen it?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I support Vern's proposal

As do I. I might widen the window where the replacement VP is appointed rather than elected and/or just have the PPT fill in, but really Vern's idea is fine.

How much would you widen it?

To four weeks, perhaps? It seems superfluous to have two national elections in the same month.

Good point, I would be fine with that then.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia. In the event of a vacancy with more than four weeks remaining prior to the next regular Vice Presidential election, a special election shall be held in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

Article IV, Section 2, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended as follows:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office, with less than four weeks remaining before the next regular vice presidential election;
 

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President, and special elections for the filling of Vice-President vacancies.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I think this wording would be cleaner, if the sponsor is OK with it:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office occurring less than four weeks remaining before the next regular Vice Presidential election;

Shouldn't there be something after occurring though, like maybe "with"? I am not an expert on the finer points of the English language myself but it does seem kind of awkward without something there.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Personally, I'd put it, "to appoint the vice president whenever a vacancy should occur fewer than thirty days before the next regular election for that office."

I think that wording is stronger myself.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So with a new Senate, what do the newbies think about this?

^^^

Vitally important question as with new Senators, the lay of the land has undoubtedly shifted on this and it is important to understand where everyone is at on both this and the other amendment so we know how to proceed.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia. In the event of a vacancy with more than four weeks remaining prior to the next regular Vice Presidential election, a special election shall be held in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

Article IV, Section 2, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended as follows:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office, with less than four weeks remaining before the next regular vice presidential election whenever a vacancy should occur fewer than thirty days before the next regular election for that office.;
 

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President, and special elections for the filling of Vice-President vacancies.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia. In the event of a vacancy with more than four weeks remaining prior to the next regular Vice Presidential election, a special election shall be held in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

Article IV, Section 2, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended as follows:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office, with less than four weeks remaining before the next regular vice presidential election whenever a vacancy should occur fewer than thirty days before the next regular election for that office.;
 

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President, and special elections for the filling of Vice-President vacancies.

Sponsor Feedback: Need Feedback
Status: Awaiting Feedback

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To establish Vice Presidential Elections that are separate from the Presidential Elections.

Be it resolved by a 2/3rds majority in both houses and ratified by the regions,

Section I: Title
This Resolution shall be titled, “The Vice President Election Amendment”

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution

Article IV, Section I of the Constitution is amended to the following:

Section 1 (The Executive)
1. The executive power shall be vested in the President of the Republic of Atlasia. He shall hold his office for a term of four months, together with a Vice President chosen for the same term.as well as the Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.
2. Elections for President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
3. Each candidate for President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.
3.Elections for Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia. In the event of a vacancy with more than four weeks remaining prior to the next regular Vice Presidential election, a special election shall be held in accordance with the measures prescribed by Congress of the Republic of Atlasia.
4. No person shall be President or Vice President who has not attained 500 or more posts, nor whose account is not at least 4,320 hours old, nor is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. Upon the commencement of his term in office, the President shall swear the following oath: "I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the Republic of Atlasia, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia."

Article IV, Section 2, Clause 5 of the Constitution is amended as follows:

to appoint the vice president in the event of a vacancy in that office, with less than four weeks remaining before the next regular vice presidential election whenever a vacancy should occur fewer than thirty days before the next regular election for that office.;
 

This amendment would edit Article IV Section I to establish a separate election for the Vice-President, and special elections for the filling of Vice-President vacancies.

Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to Object

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment is adopted.


Does anyone wish to offer Jimmy's amendment into the Senate and proceed with a vote on it (since it is unfriendly)?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Based on the situation in the House with this recent debate, I don't see much hope for this actually passing therefore I am going to motion for a final vote. Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

A final vote is now open on this legislation, Senators please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.