SENATE RESOLUTION: The Recall of Senators Amendment (Passed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Amendment S17:08 is adopted with no objections having been entered in the allotted time.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

We are literally back to square 1. This is the same text to what failed in the House.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=312803.msg6653945#msg6653945

What makes the outcome different this time?

It only failed in the House last time because of Windjammer's fear-mongering going unanswered. Plus, it's a new congress, and this amendment has far more support and interest than last time.

Why are we tuning out windjammer considering his history of doing (purely from an elections standpoint) shrewd political moves? Because muh Labor and Labor is bad?

Actually, the problem here is that we have two Laborites making different arguments, and we are basically going to have to chose between which one to listen to. Truman or Windjammer.

While game reform should be one of the least partisan kinds of bills, since both Truman and Windjammer are Laborites, does the other side of the aisle have an opinion on the issue?

Well my point was to respond to YE's notion that we were ignoring Windjammer because he was a Laborite.

My instincts tell me that Truman is right and that we should give the discretion to the regions on how to structure them. However, once such has been given I: would certainly encourage the regions to make it difficult to abuse the process.

This was the approach I took in response to the pre-reset 17th Amendment (which did similarly with amendment ratification ie given them discretion on how to do it). The radicals abused it as part of Rimjob in order to create a desire to repeal it and there were several attempts ot repeal it. I pushed the regions to beef up their constitutions and to make them difficult to be hijacked.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'll share some thoughts on details later as I have time to ponder about this, but in principle I'd like to express my belief that recalls are necessary and important, and we shouldn't shy away from them merely due to the potential for abuse if we take appropriate steps to contain some of such hypothetical dangers. Truman has certainly made a strong case in favor of his approach, which I find most reasonable, and it would be a shame to see the potential for this reform lost if the amendment is tabled.

I get why Regional Executives and others are most concerned about overreach, but at the risk of asking what could be a dumb question: would it be unacceptable to outline that the regions can indeed set their own regulations for recall SO LONG as they fulfill a couple of basic standard requirements? (so as to explicitly forbid certain forms of possible abuse)

At the risk of invoking a history lesson we've had some real major b*stards in the Senate pre-reset and some that weren't quite up to the job post-reset, I don't think we should deny recall or cast it into the realm of unconstitutionality.

If one goes by the joint letter, the regional executives seem to insist on regional discretion over the details so as to not conflict with the other provisions of the Constitution, which already grants said discretion over how to structure regular Senate elections.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My instincts tell me that Truman is right and that we should give the discretion to the regions on how to structure them. However, once such has been given I: would certainly encourage the regions to make it difficult to abuse the process.

One provision I'd encourage the regions to adopt in the event this passes and is ratified, would be to limit participation in popular recall elections to citizens who were eligible to vote in the last regular election for that seat—thus hopefully avoiding the peril of strategic registration that Windjammer rightly warns of.

What does everyone else think of this idea?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

My instincts tell me that Truman is right and that we should give the discretion to the regions on how to structure them. However, once such has been given I: would certainly encourage the regions to make it difficult to abuse the process.

One provision I'd encourage the regions to adopt in the event this passes and is ratified, would be to limit participation in popular recall elections to citizens who were eligible to vote in the last regular election for that seat—thus hopefully avoiding the peril of strategic registration that Windjammer rightly warns of.

This opens up a bit of a can of worms, though - if you’re going to consider this sort of provision acceptable for special elections, you’re one step away from having it be acceptable to apply it to regular elections as well - establishing a grandfather claus and a permanently fixed voter base. And this sort of provision is, to my understanding, entirely constitutional for the regions to do - there are no restrictions on how they select either their Senators or their own government - making this entirely an issue of what provisions are considered acceptable in the Overton window.

After all, this sort of provision would mean that someone could literally be elected to a second straight full term in their regional legislature and still be ineligible to vote for Senate. Once you’re there...it’s not much of a reach to go even further.


Also, in marginal regions, if Party A has several people fall off the rolls or deregister in the region after a federal election, but also several new registrants, while Party B has fewer people do either, then all of a sudden Party B can initiate a recall with an electorate that is more favorable to them than both the initial electorate that elected the Senator in question and the regions current electorate.

Post-reset Atlasia has thankfully been free of this sort of electorate manipulation by statute, but this already starts doing that and opens the door for even more.

So this approach really causes several other issues to spring up.

Is there any approach here that doesn't cause fire and brimstone, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would also add the issue that having to control several electorates for recalls would be very hard for the Registrar General and Secretary of Elections and we should not make their lives harder (especially since they are the same person currently, but even if split it's not a good idea)

I'm not sure I follow this line of argument. It would be up to the regions to enforce their own rules regarding Senatorial recalls, so the RG/SoFE would play no part in seeing this implemented —if one or more regions decided to go this rout.

Actually you are right, as you could just use an outdated census (the one closest to the original election). I still think it would be hard to limit the voter pool to those at the original election though and a dumb idea.

If people want to invade a region to recall someone, that's corrupt, but should be possible. And of course it would be up to the regions to decide.

So in that case it comes down to whether or not we have four Senators on board with the approach of allowing recalls and then letting the regions decide best how to or whether to try and restrict attempts at abuse.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Just to reiterate, we need to see whether the present Amendment has support to advance as is, while I would be tempted to put it to a vote (absent the pending end of the Senate), it would be my preference to know where we stand first.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I mean the thread title even says, "CHECK THIS THREAD"

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senate Resolution

To allow for recall of Senators by the Regions they represent.

Be it resolved by two-thirds of each chamber that the Constitution be amended, as follows, upon ratification by the regions.

Section I: Title
1. This Resolution shall be titled, "The Recall of Senators Amendment"

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution
Article III, Section II, Clause 1 is amended as follows.

1. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof. Senators shall be subject to recall according to such provisions as may be established in the constitutions of their respective Regions; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I move for a final vote, Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Without objection a final vote is now opened on this legislation, Senators please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

AYE

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This has enough votes to pass, Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Senate Resolution

To allow for recall of Senators by the Regions they represent.

Be it resolved by two-thirds of each chamber that the Constitution be amended, as follows, upon ratification by the regions.

Section I: Title
1. This Resolution shall be titled, "The Recall of Senators Amendment"

Section 2: Changes to the Constitution
Article III, Section II, Clause 1 is amended as follows.

1. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof. Senators shall be subject to recall according to such provisions as may be established in the constitutions of their respective Regions; but no Region shall make or enforce any Act or other Rule prescribing regular elections for the Senate, except in accordance with the provisions established herein.

People's Regional Senate
Passed 6-0 in the Atlasian Senate Assembled,