Israel and Palestine

[dunn]

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

this is basiclly Clinton's plan that Barakaccepted and Arafat didn't and started a war

[dunn]

The Beef Peace Plan:

1. Two states.
2. Israel withdraws to 1967 borders.
3. Old Jerusalem under Israeli control.
4. No right of return.
5. Israel evacuates all settlements.
6. Palestinian citizens granted right of passage between the West Bank and Gaza, and access to Old Jerusalem, but Israel may suspend that right if terrorist acts continue.

this is basiclly Clinton's plan that Barak accepted and Arafat didn't and started a war

Yep.  But just because Arafat walked out on it doesn't mean it's not a good plan.  We all know Arafat isn't interested in peace.  Once Arafat is gone, and the Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace, then they'll be able to work things out.  The only question is how many supermarkets and buses get blown to bits before that happens .

I agree but
1. the fact that you know it does not mean the world does
2. Palestinian leadership shifts from a policy of annihilation to a policy of peace is something we expect for 80 years. Some of us  thought it came in the 90's and boy, were they wrong

[dunn]

True, Palesitne was never a country.  The Hebrews, however, were not native to Palestine, they conquered it.  In my opinion, even if they previously had a claim on the land, they were absent for about 2000 years, and other people had moved in.  

The jews were force out and wanted to come back ever since. b/c this is their home, in every corner of the globe they prayed for jerusalem (who is mentioned in the OT 728 times. 0 in the Kor'an). Their were jews in this country during the entire history. true sometimes not many' but their were very few arabs as well (and they came in the last few centuries). and by your logic if someone throw you out of your house and you come after say 20 years back and discover another person saw it enpty and live there for the last 2 years, does that mean it not your house?

[dunn]

Weren't there people in "Israel" before the Jews originally moved in?

And WHO voted for "Extermination of Palestinians," they are sick bastards.

And is Israel REALLY building that wall around Palestine which will cut the Palestinians off from a bunch of their land?

Ehhh....who's talking...

I didn't bother Gus, don't bother either

[dunn]

He was a particularly nasty guy, responsible for the deaths of a lot of Jews and one of the major blockades for peace.

Although it would be nicer if they were captured and executed, this is not as easy and so I support Israel's actions.

Amen

[dunn]

I'll never support a nation that forces its children to become suicide bombers.

Amen
but they are not really a nation

[dunn]

if the people of south east Sweden will declare themself a nation, will they be one? I agree you don't have to have a state to be a nation (Armenian didn't, thr Kurdish don't) but still that was not Brambila point.

[dunn]

if the people of south east Sweden will declare themself a nation, will they be one? I agree you don't have to have a state to be a nation (Armenian didn't, thr Kurdish don't) but still that was not Brambila point.

Yes. If they believe in it, they would. We come up with words, we own them. Nations are about identities.

exectly. a region is not enough

[dunn]

if the people of south east Sweden will declare themself a nation, will they be one? I agree you don't have to have a state to be a nation (Armenian didn't, thr Kurdish don't) but still that was not Brambila point.

Yes. If they believe in it, they would. We come up with words, we own them. Nations are about identities.

exectly. a region is not enough

No, of course not. We're not talking about regional identities here.

Israel is a great example that proves my point in fact. The Jewish nation lived on throughout the last 2000 years, even though they didn't have a country or state.

I said that myself
but there was no palestinian nation even in 1948, they didn't create a state in the teritories when they were in Arab control till 1967

[dunn]

State of Israel

[dunn]

This is from AP


TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) -- Abdel Aziz Rantisi, the Hamas leader assassinated in an Israeli air strike Saturday, was one of the highest profile and most extreme voices of the violent Islamic group.

He served as Hamas leader in Gaza for less than a month after Israel killed his predecessor, Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin, in a similar helicopter missile strike on March 22.

Rantisi rejected any accommodation with Israel, following strict Hamas ideology that called for destruction of the Jewish state in the Middle East.

A pediatrician by profession with a reasonable command of English, Rantisi was readily available to foreign journalists and was one of the most recognizable of Hamas' leaders.

Even before he was chosen to replace Yassin, Rantisi was in Israeli gunsights. Last year, an Israeli helicopter fired missiles at his vehicle, wounding him.

Rantisi told journalists that day "My priority is to unite the Palestinians in the trenches of resistance because there is no one left who believes in something called the peace process."

Rantisi, Yassin and five other men founded Hamas in 1987 at the start of a first uprising against Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The group grew into one of the region's largest militant Islamic factions and called for a Muslim Middle East without a Jewish state. The United States and Israel regard Hamas as a terrorist organization.

[dunn]

my theory is that it's the JCP people do it to look Israeli supporters look bad

[dunn]

that is suprizing really, this a left leaning forum

[dunn]

I don't understand how the Palestinians have a claim to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.  As George Will pointed out in his most recent column (http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/national/will/story/8915961p-9842337c.html), the territories are unalocated from the 1922 Palestinian mandate.

Israel keeps winning land in wars that it doesn't start, then Palestinians, the UN, and other anti-Israel organizations carp about how Israel should give back some of that land to the Palestinians.  I just don't see it that way.

Amen Steve, Amen George

[dunn]

Yeah. As I always say, giving up the Sinai penninsula to Egypt was Israel's biggest mistake ever. lol. That was actually a pretty funny war, the six day war in 1967.

I disagree, Israel got rid of Egypt as an enemy, that was pretty good.

But the six day war was a cool war, breathtaking.

NO war is cool
trust me

[dunn]

Yeah. As I always say, giving up the Sinai penninsula to Egypt was Israel's biggest mistake ever. lol. That was actually a pretty funny war, the six day war in 1967.

I disagree, Israel got rid of Egypt as an enemy, that was pretty good.

But the six day war was a cool war, breathtaking.

NO war is cool
trust me

Sorry, bad choice of words. I know that war is no game of course. I've just always been fascinated by how Israel beat off their attackers so swiftly, that's all. I retake my statement and apologize for it.

It's ok Gus , no need to apologize
it's just a bad word to describe war. And it was fascinated 6 days o/c

[dunn]

The only reason why Israel attacked Egypt was because Egypt blocked it's path to the Red Sea and Egypt was harboring Palestinian militants, who attacked Israel from Egyptian territory.

He was talking about 56' not 67'

[dunn]

The only reason why Israel attacked Egypt was because Egypt blocked it's path to the Red Sea and Egypt was harboring Palestinian militants, who attacked Israel from Egyptian territory.

Actually, they were asked to do so by the UK and France...the reason for the war was that the Egypt government decided to confiscate Franco-English shares of the Suez channel.

true

[dunn]

Oh. Wrong war.

you still know waaaaay better then most people Brambila

[dunn]

I know very little, actually... but I'm able to see the situation and who the guilty party actually is.

A quarter of San Francisco's population is Jewish, and although there is not a whole lot of Jewish persecution here, if you drive 15 minutes north to Berkeley, you'll see that violence against pro-israeli Jews (and some not even taking a position!) is not uncommon.

thank you for that link