Across Europe, the Left is Waning

[Associate Justice PiT]

As I've been saying, Europe is a great place these days. 

     It definitely seems to be making progress in this regard.

As I've been saying, Europe is a great place these days. 

You think Far-Right parties are a good thing? I am sure you would agree the European Left>the European Far-Right.

     Yes, but the European Left is still pretty miserable. If this causes the European mainstream Right to gain more power, then that is good.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

... none of which are left wing. At least in the way the spectrum is in any way understood around here. Here I mimic what Hashemite said.

     They're only moderately leftist. Or more specifically, they would be regarded as such by American standards, though many economic policies supported by fascist governments are not that controversial in Europe.

     I wanted to point this out mainly because of a misconception amongst certain left-leaning individuals that fascist is a catch-all term that can be applied to extreme right-wingers, as if fascists actually support economically libertarian policies.

[Associate Justice PiT]

First of all, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the"left" wing and the "right" wing parties in Europe these days anyway. Second, most of the so called "far-right" parties tend to be fairly left wing on the economic issues.

     The thing that receives little notice nowadays is that the fascists (which many far-right European parties are modeled on) tended to have fairly leftist economic views.

Exactly. The BNP have this crazy idea of abolishing the income tax (which is one of the few economic issues thaey would be considered "right wing" on) while spending through the roof on healthcare, pensions, defence, etc.

To Channel Alun's spirit (whatever it is), no-one really votes for them due to their economic policies.

     While I agree with you 100%, I wanted to point out that they nevertheless do support those economic policies.

... none of which are left wing. At least in the way the spectrum is in any way understood around here. Here I mimic what Hashemite said.

     They're only moderately leftist. Or more specifically, they would be regarded as such by American standards, though many economic policies supported by fascist governments are not that controversial in Europe.

     I wanted to point this out mainly because of a misconception amongst certain left-leaning individuals that fascist is a catch-all term that can be applied to extreme right-wingers, as if fascists actually support economically libertarian policies.

Nonsense. Left-Right originally referred to the split in the French National Assembly following the French Revolution between the different shades of monarchists and republicans. Many of the former were those that benefitted from the expansion of bureaucracy under the Absolutist regime while many on the 'left' were those liberals who wanted an economic situation as in the books of Adam Smith [/massive simplification]. The Left/Right relationship was about one's position in society and ones relationship towards power and towards what was understood to be 'traditionalist'. In this way and in many others the BNP and their ilk are contuining an extreme reactionary line towards modernity that may date back to the likes of Joseph De Maistre and those clerics who held that the Jews were responsible for the French Revolution. This you will see has nothing to do with economic policies. People did not and do not think blankly in such terms (and dividing 'economic issues' from 'social issues' is the dumbest piece of s**te in American Politics... and that is saying something).

The concept that left-right has anything to do with "state control" (or worse, that levels of state control in a liberal democracy tells us anything at all about the nature of government) is purely an American Invention which is very strange when looked at from any non-American perspective.

     Fair enough. I was approaching the issue from an American perspective, & I see what you mean in criticizing that. As fascism is not an American invention, it makes sense that the American political paradigm would fail to satisfactorily describe it.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Bizarrely, the closest major American Political movement to fascism (that is native to the White Population and isn't just an import from Europe) is certain types of Randian Objectivism/Libertarianism especially when associated with either the close-the-borders crowd and/or "it's okay to shot illegals as they are trepassing private property" gang. I should stress I mean this only in regards to certain aspects, but it is the closest.

     The odd thing is that Ron Paul's more xenophobic followers really are not libertarian in any way relating to the central ideology of the libertarian movement. Paleo-conservatives are anti-statist because they believe that the family unit should be supreme & shielded from government interference while Libertarians are anti-statist because they believe in the importance of protecting the freedoms of individuals. Two groups who believe in the same means, but with radically different ends.