AR-Sen: Lincoln gets an opponent

[Associate Justice PiT]

Don't forget that Rep. Dana Rohrabacher or however you spell it from Orange County, CA or somewhere along those lines, he's a guy, and lol @ Butch Otter yeah that's definitely a unique name.

as I've said before, Google image's safe search is pretty much in existence for people like Governor Butch Otter

     So people can be disappointed when they learn that he is in fact not a butch otter?

[Associate Justice PiT]

A Republican is the same thing as that terrible DINO Lincoln and no one's going to primary her.

  Lincoln's a great Senator, despite because of her vote on EFCA.

[Associate Justice PiT]

A Republican is the same thing as that terrible DINO Lincoln and no one's going to primary her.

  Lincoln's a great Senator, despite because of her vote on EFCA.

Your hate against unions really is creepy. Wanting to ban them is very fascist.

     But it's not fascist that unless a state passes a law to protect its workers that they can be cut loose for not paying union dues? I guess only people who oppose the sacred union boss can be fascist.

[Associate Justice PiT]

A Republican is the same thing as that terrible DINO Lincoln and no one's going to primary her.

  Lincoln's a great Senator, despite because of her vote on EFCA.

Your hate against unions really is creepy. Wanting to ban them is very fascist.

     But it's not fascist that unless a state passes a law to protect its workers that they can be cut loose for not paying union dues? I guess only people who oppose the sacred union boss can be fascist.

That really isn't fascist but certainly banning institutions is. I think unions can be very corrupt and idiotic too but big business is just as bad and I think you only hate unions because they push leftist policies and have popular support of the people which is inherently against American Libertarianism

     I hate them because they appeal to people's (sometimes incorrect) notions of what is good for their self-preservation, obstructing sensible economic policy. I exaggerated somewhat when I said I wanted them banned, but I have no sympathy for unions & have no desire to ever aid them in their collectivistic objectives.

[Associate Justice PiT]

A Republican is the same thing as that terrible DINO Lincoln and no one's going to primary her.

  Lincoln's a great Senator, despite because of her vote on EFCA.

Your hate against unions really is creepy. Wanting to ban them is very fascist.

     But it's not fascist that unless a state passes a law to protect its workers that they can be cut loose for not paying union dues? I guess only people who oppose the sacred union boss can be fascist.

That really isn't fascist but certainly banning institutions is. I think unions can be very corrupt and idiotic too but big business is just as bad and I think you only hate unions because they push leftist policies and have popular support of the people which is inherently against American Libertarianism

     I hate them because they appeal to people's (sometimes incorrect) notions of what is good for their self-preservation, obstructing sensible economic policy. I exaggerated somewhat when I said I wanted them banned, but I have no sympathy for unions & have no desire to ever aid them in their collectivistic objectives.

Ahhh but in many ways sensible economic policy is not sensible to some classes. This goes both ways. What "sensible economic policy" is, is very subjective. In some instances going against free trade or wanting higher wages is sensible in some communities. I don't see how a "liberatarian" could hate people for sticking up for their own interests. It is part of human nature in the same way how corporations operate is part of human nature.

     Oh? Opposing free trade is sensible for nobody, but people do it anyway. Demanding higher & higher wages until your employer goes out of business is not sensible either (not to say all unionists do that). When people stick up for things that hurt them without understanding the risks, problems arise. Not to say that people should never stick up for self-destructive principles. I do that myself all the time.

[Associate Justice PiT]

PiT, it is sensible for lots of people.  The entire premise behind free trade is that it has winners and losers, but a net gain.

While I could see a libertarian argument that allows people to form whatever bargaining collectives they want (and compete with other such groups), I couldn't see one for government-enforced coalitions whenever 50.1% sign a contract in face-to-face confrontations/requests by union organizers.  A libertarian might also be inclined to point out that unions held a historically far more important role than they do today, since the government regulates a lot of the issues that keep the workplace humanely safe.  There might be some difference between a group of people deciding to organize through a representative and whatnot, and EFCA.

As PiT alluded to, my own biggest beef with unions is their efforts to hurt the majority of the country in exchange for protecting a small segment ... aka opposing free trade.  I have the same opinion about agribusiness and whatnot.  Also, the union organizers are unilaterally rejecting compromises which push for quicker elections (so that employers are less able to interfere) and higher than 50.1% margins for card check votes but 50.1% for anonymous votes... so I'm not too sympathetic.  There are legitimate beefs with the way the status quo is set up, as I understand them, although I haven't been following the debate too closely because EFCA as-is is obviously DOA.  There aren't 60 votes there for it, and thus you're  seeing Senators in low-unionization states up for reelection in 2010 bailing on it because there's not too much gain in backing legislation that's not going to happen in its current form.

     You make a really good point. I tend to get really angry when arguing against protectionist positions, & I wasn't able to articulate my point as clearly as I wanted to because of that.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I would also like to say that while unions themselves are inoffensive, their supporters generally tick me off. I'll just leave it at the observation that I've never seen a labor supporter applaud the Taft-Hartley Act for increasing the freedom of workers to not join unions.