How many computer programmers does society actually need?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I think the talent bar to entry is actually a major factor in properly regulating supply vs. demand for programmers. It is hard to flood a labor market that requires substantial skills in data auditing and mathematical logic as well as many hours of practice merely to enter the field.

[Associate Justice PiT]

In Rhode Island, we are now making in a required skill learned in 6th-10th grades.

I may be overly influenced by my inability to learn coding and programming, but this sounds like a complete waste of school time to me and is based on nothing more than a 'fad.'

I've already written why I think coding can be of value to students who want to learn it, but I remember when I was in grade two or three in 1977 or 1978 and we had a substitute teacher and there were, for some reason, a bunch of punch cards strewn about part of the school grounds (I believe around the bike racks) and one of the students took one of the punch cards in with them asked the teacher what they were, and the teacher replied "they're punch cards for computers.  We should be teaching you about them and how to use them with computers because you'll be using them when you grow up.

     They're useful as a primer for what computer programming is and the kinds of thinking it requires. At the same time, nobody is going to become a computer programmer on the strength of middle school classes. I think these kinds of classes are useful as an introduction to programming as a field (something we should do more of in school, but that's another topic), but I would caution against overestimating the impact of these classes.

[Associate Justice PiT]

In Rhode Island, we are now making in a required skill learned in 6th-10th grades.

I may be overly influenced by my inability to learn coding and programming, but this sounds like a complete waste of school time to me and is based on nothing more than a 'fad.'

I've already written why I think coding can be of value to students who want to learn it, but I remember when I was in grade two or three in 1977 or 1978 and we had a substitute teacher and there were, for some reason, a bunch of punch cards strewn about part of the school grounds (I believe around the bike racks) and one of the students took one of the punch cards in with them asked the teacher what they were, and the teacher replied "they're punch cards for computers.  We should be teaching you about them and how to use them with computers because you'll be using them when you grow up.

     They're useful as a primer for what computer programming is and the kinds of thinking it requires. At the same time, nobody is going to become a computer programmer on the strength of middle school classes. I think these kinds of classes are useful as an introduction to programming as a field (something we should do more of in school, but that's another topic), but I would caution against overestimating the impact of these classes.

1.A computer programmer no, but my understanding is that these coding classes are about teaching kids to program apps for themselves.  I can see a value in that if the kids want to take the classes.

2.The biggest impact I think regards the loss of class time for other subjects that actually should be mandatory.  (Like critical judgment.)

3.As far as I know, auto mechanics (or shop) was always an elective course.

     I don't do program apps, so I am less qualified to comment on such matters. I will say that it does strike me as rather less effective in that case, since app developer is probably a much more limited field than programmer in general.

     Programming encourages the development of logical thinking, of a similar kind to what one needs for critical judgment. A visionary in pedagogy could probably develop a means of combining these two into a single class that teaches children the basics of programming and how to employ the same type of problem-solving and critical thinking in other spheres of life. Sadly I do not see that happening any time soon.

     It's not just shop and auto mechanics. There used to be classes for typing, penmanship, shorthand, household accounting, and more (these are examples I got from my grandmother's Class of 1930 high school yearbook). Obviously not all of those things are still useful, but we could still benefit from leaving these kids with more life skills. Budgeting for a household in particular is something that everyone should be skilled in doing.

[Associate Justice PiT]

In Rhode Island, we are now making in a required skill learned in 6th-10th grades.

I may be overly influenced by my inability to learn coding and programming, but this sounds like a complete waste of school time to me and is based on nothing more than a 'fad.'

I've already written why I think coding can be of value to students who want to learn it, but I remember when I was in grade two or three in 1977 or 1978 and we had a substitute teacher and there were, for some reason, a bunch of punch cards strewn about part of the school grounds (I believe around the bike racks) and one of the students took one of the punch cards in with them asked the teacher what they were, and the teacher replied "they're punch cards for computers.  We should be teaching you about them and how to use them with computers because you'll be using them when you grow up.

     They're useful as a primer for what computer programming is and the kinds of thinking it requires. At the same time, nobody is going to become a computer programmer on the strength of middle school classes. I think these kinds of classes are useful as an introduction to programming as a field (something we should do more of in school, but that's another topic), but I would caution against overestimating the impact of these classes.

1.A computer programmer no, but my understanding is that these coding classes are about teaching kids to program apps for themselves.  I can see a value in that if the kids want to take the classes.

2.The biggest impact I think regards the loss of class time for other subjects that actually should be mandatory.  (Like critical judgment.)

3.As far as I know, auto mechanics (or shop) was always an elective course.

     I don't program apps, so I am less qualified to comment on such matters. I will say that it does strike me as rather less effective in that case, since app developer is probably a much more limited field than programmer in general.

     Programming encourages the development of logical thinking, of a similar kind to what one needs for critical judgment. A visionary in pedagogy could probably develop a means of combining these two into a single class that teaches children the basics of programming and how to employ the same type of problem-solving and critical thinking in other spheres of life. Sadly I do not see that happening any time soon.

     It's not just shop and auto mechanics. There used to be classes for typing, penmanship, shorthand, household accounting, and more (these are examples I got from my grandmother's Class of 1930 high school yearbook). Obviously not all of those things are still useful, but we could still benefit from leaving these kids with more life skills. Budgeting for a household in particular is something that everyone should be skilled in doing.

I think it's important we split this up.  The appropriate analog to "shop" classes would be closer to these type of app development or language classes - teaching the basics of a programming language like Python or Android, or a markup language like HTML/CSS.  In universities, these classes tend to be worth 1 or 2 units, compared to 3-5 for core computer science classes, which emphasize algorithms, data structures, low-level systems programming, etc. which tend to involve more critical thinking but are also much, much harder/time-consuming and tend to emphasize generalizable concepts rather than becoming skilled in one thing.  I tend to believe that everyone would benefit from basic language classes (learning basic HTML/CSS/Javascript, a traditional language like Java, C++, or Python to teach basic programming concepts, an "app" language for mobile devices like Android or Swift, and maybe R for data analysis).  This would also be fairly accessible, and would give people the tools to learn more on their own, if they so desire.  But it makes little sense for people who don't want to make a career in software engineering (and even then, not all the classes are useful, per se) to tackle hard-core computer science classes at the university-level, as they tend to be very time-consuming and not at all accessible to those at lower ability levels; as Foucalf noted, folks who struggle get passed Algebra 2 would have a hard time in software engineering.

     This goes back to what I was saying earlier about coding boot camps vs. university programs. The former is quicker and easier, drilling you on the specific hard skills you need to get some kind of job in programming. Computer science departments go into much greater theoretical depth, developing not only the hard skills but also the broader understanding to really appreciate what is going on and thrive in the most intense programming jobs. The investment is greater, but so is the payoff. On some level it might make sense to think of these as separate but related industries.

[Associate Justice PiT]

    This goes back to what I was saying earlier about coding boot camps vs. university programs. The former is quicker and easier, drilling you on the specific hard skills you need to get some kind of job in programming. Computer science departments go into much greater theoretical depth, developing not only the hard skills but also the broader understanding to really appreciate what is going on and thrive in the most intense programming jobs. The investment is greater, but so is the payoff. On some level it might make sense to think of these as separate but related industries.

The interesting question will be where both groups of people end up in the future.  As an aside, I remember I saw a data science Coursera online "boot camp," and in this 9 month module, we covered the vast majority of the material within it for two 10-week quarters in a fast-paced 3 unit class (and another 4-unit one) at my university.  Apparently, people have been hired in data science based on that certification, which to me is quite surprising given how limited the material was.  Because much of the tech industry is so new, and the number of job openings greatly exceeds the number of people who have specifically studied the subject in college, we see a lot of variety of backgrounds of people entering the field, especially in newer areas like machine learning.  How both groups (those from a more traditional university environment vs. less traditional ways) progress throughout their career will take more time to see, but I suspect (for the reasons you noted above) the former will be more successful.  

     I think it also helps that these fields lean so heavily on these sorts of hard skills that can be learned and subsequently demonstrated, whereas most traditional fields (except for the trades) do not. It makes it much easier for someone to pick up programming, put in the time to learn, and enter these fields. I work with two programmers in my unit, neither of whom have traditional backgrounds. I also do some programming (though it is ~5% of my job duties), and I have only limited experience with it in the university environment.

     I agree though that the people with formal training will probably be more successful overall. There are details of computer science I know that my coworkers don't, which have proven useful at times. If I have to learn a new language from scratch, thinking about the relations of objects in logical terms helps. Indeed, it may be improper to talk about learning any programming language from scratch once you know one.