Diplomacy Dreams

[NOVA Green]

I was just going to post this...

[NOVA Green]

Kind of amazing to me that St Petersburg stands. Almost hurts a little that the proud Russian capital is too minor and of little note to bother taking.

My current plan is to personally oversee the defeat of the Czar and the liberation of St Petersburg in 1928.

You have plenty of time to prepare your defenses.

[NOVA Green]

Kind of amazing to me that St Petersburg stands. Almost hurts a little that the proud Russian capital is too minor and of little note to bother taking.

Also should toss on an oldie but goodie...

[NOVA Green]

While we are all eagerly awaiting to see the results of the Fall 1905 Campaign Season, here is an old Irish Horseracing and gambling song about the crowds showing up to watch.

Off to the races lads!

[NOVA Green]

Prediction: the Italian government in exile in Tunis will survive to the end.

[NOVA Green]

Do I need to say I'm disbanding the fleet?

Because I am, obviously.

Been a pleasure, gents.

I just want to say Mikado that it was a pleasure playing with you.

Although our interactions were infrequent, both because of extreme geographical dislocation between our two empires, as well as the fact that by the time I entered the game your forces had been reduced to a rump of the Russian Empire, there were a couple times where your actions were pivotal in impacting the course of European History.

Look forward to playing with you again!   

[NOVA Green]

I very much hate to do this but I would like to request a delay. My crappy laptop finally called it quits on me and I only have my cellphone to communicate until Monday. If everybody's okay with moving the deadline to Tuesday, it would be very much appreciated. Adequate technology is necessary for this game and right now I no longer have that.

Well haven't you been using your cellphone to communicate previously on many occasions? 

Seriously, personally I have always felt the (48) hour move phase was too short, and likely has compounded and hampered the proper flow the game most significantly for those in time-zones outside of North America...

Not sure if this necessarily qualifies as an "Emergency Event" or not and/or a possible "Yellow Card" (European Football) scene.

Perhaps other players should weigh in and perhaps we move it to a (72) hour between moves with the (24) hours for retreat and disband/builds?

We currently have two players in the game in international time zones, who have most likely been severely impacted by the (48) hour rule.

Regardless, I understand Scott's conundrum and would be open to the rules being changed, but surely that should involve input from all game players before the GM unilaterally decides to make the decision without collective input?

[NOVA Green]

I should also add that I think 72 hours as a rule is a bit too long. This is an emergency situation but once I get my replacement tomorrow this won't be an issue.

Hopefully you got your replacement...

It's a bit of a bummer when your laptop crashes, and just went through this recently myself, and had to float a bit of cash to get an immediate replacement which could potentially play Baldur's Gate 3 (Which I have not yet bought), and then all of the data recovery stuff, passwords, etc....

Total bummer man, so hopefully I didn't sound too unsympathetic.... as you know from my personal communications I find the (48) hour move scene to be a bit short, especially with gameplay with our international players, but willing to stick with the format for this go around if that's that the majority want.

Still, it does seem that there is not a majority consensus to expand the current move turns to (72) hours, despite at least one player who sounds like feeling a bit hampered with the whole international time zone.

I suspect that IMDB would agree with the sentiment, although he has effectively dropped out of the game for all intents.

[NOVA Green]

Drumroll and musical interlude...

[NOVA Green]

While we all eagerly await the results of the war news, it should be topical to remember that as we plot our moves, hundreds of thousands will die because of our decisions...

[NOVA Green]

For some reason I am reminded of this song, which I am currently listening to with my wife:

[NOVA Green]

Now that we are officially entering the "Countdown" Phase of the movement, time for a musical interlude while we naturally we are all eagerly awaiting the results from the Fall 1907 Move Phase.

We get a Bob Dylan Two-Pack:

NOVA GREEN

[NOVA Green]

Sorry Kuumo,

It was fun playing with you although I entered the game after to replace France at the last minute.

Best wishes with your IRL situations, and as a player who got the Italian roll of the dice in one of my previous Atlas Diplomacy games, recognize that the "Middle Powers" such as Germany and Italy are some of the roughest to play.

I should never have given you such bad advice, which I will probably selectively quote on the Atlas Comedy Gold Mine thread (If it still exists), since it inadvertently caused the loss of what was effectively a well protected GVT in exile unless there was some sort of secret Ottoman-French Alliance.

Goodnight Sweet Prince....

Peace, Love, and Mutual Solidarity,

NOVA GREEN

[NOVA Green]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

Don't recall these were ever changed.

Sure players can change things with unanimous consent, and certainly the GM is allowed to make executive decisions in the event that rules are challenged.

Still, there are some questions regarding exactly which version of Diplomacy we are playing, since apparently there might have been a recent ruling (Which nobody protested at the time), which might have tilted the scales slightly.

Regardless, I suspect that I speak for all current players to know the exact Diplomacy rules we are playing under, so that we can potentially minimize mistaken orders on the basis of misunderstanding of the "rulebooks" versus people just making huge epic "Eff-Ups" because of not understanding the rules or major strategic mistakes.

Asking for a friend, so not just me....

[NOVA Green]

Aren’t retreat and build phases 24 hours, or did we change them to 48 as well?

Definitely 24 hours. You didn't see nothin'.

Don't recall these were ever changed.

Sure players can change things with unanimous consent, and certainly the GM is allowed to make executive decisions in the event that rules are challenged.

Still, there are some questions regarding exactly which version of Diplomacy we are playing, since apparently there might have been a recent ruling (Which nobody protested at the time), which might have tilted the scales slightly.

Regardless, I suspect that I speak for all current players to know the exact Diplomacy rules we are playing under, so that we can potentially minimize mistaken orders on the basis of misunderstanding of the "rulebooks" versus people just making huge epic "Eff-Ups" because of not understanding the rules or major strategic mistakes.

Asking for a friend, so not just me....

I am not sure what you mean. I had Scott post links on the first page of the thread indicating the map and the rules, so new players wouldn't be lost. I expect that the players have either played Diplomacy or read that ruleset. I have asked for clarification from some players in regards to orders I think involve a typo, but I have not stepped in to question players as to whether they realize they are making an enormous strategic mistake. That would be highly improper for the GM to do in a game like this.

If you have something specific that you are confused by, please just ask. I have stated numerous times that I will answer such questions.

From some private conversation (NOVA, correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the sequence he's referring to is this set of moves from Spring 1907:

Austria: F Nap - Tys / Bounced with Lyo

France: F Lyo - Tys / Bounced with Nap
France: F Wes S F Lyo – Tys

Italy: F Tun S F Lyo - Tys / Dislodged from Tys

Turkey: F Ion S F Tys – Tun
Turkey: F Tys - Tun
Turkey: F tus Supports F nap - tys

The adjudication by jDip was correct, because:

a) Tun is dislodged 2vs1: Tys attacks Tun with support from Ion, and Tun is not supported.  This is straightforward.

b) Because Tun is dislodged, its support to any operation in the space that dislodged it (Tys) is cut.

c) As such, the French and Austrian moves to Tys bounce because it's 2vs2: Lyo-Tys with support from Wes (Tun's support was cut as noted above), vs Nap-Tys with support from Tus.

Now, if I had tried to convoy the army in Rome to Tunis (as I attempted once before), THAT would have failed because it would hit one of those obscure corners in the rules.  In a convoy situation, Tunis's support for the French attack on Tys would NOT have been cut.  As such, the French move to Tys would have succeeded (3vs2), which would have dislodged my fleet from Tys, which would have disrupted my convoy, so Tun would not have been dislodged.  The end result would have been Tun remaining in place, France's move to Tys succeeding, and my fleet in Tys destroyed because there would have been no place for it to retreat.  But I didn't try the convoy, so this is all hypothetical.

Thank you GM for clarifying what was likely a bit of misinterpretation.

I was actually thinking about an earlier convoy move into Italy or a subsequent one after that (Both of which appeared to be brilliantly executed I may add.

Apologies to our humble GM hosting, and yes if players have questions regarding a particular interpretation of the rules, likely best to do that via PM versus posting on the game thread itself.

Sorry about that...

Again thanks themaninthejinnahcap, we know you are doing this as a labor of love and not for any glamor nor glory, and I must say you have done a very good job, especially when it came to items not in "the rulebook" but also navigating issues of players entering/leaving, proposed shift to deadlines to accommodate different player's time zones, etc...

Still even with the more compressed timeline than I prefer we have not had a game hiatus due to players quietly dropping out, or in some cases extremely abruptly, as I have experienced in both of my prior Atlas Diplomacy games.

I guess my one suggestion for future games is that there needs to be a way to accommodate players in international time zones (i.e. Not North or South American), since it has been frequently frustrating being able to communicate in time to establish whatever mutual agreements or understanding, etc have been proposed by the other party.

Thanks Again our own themaninthejinnahcap for resurrecting Diplomacy on Atlas, where the main reason it stopped was because Muon2 had some various other activities he was engaged in and declined to host, although we had about (6-7) players already onboard if I recall correctly.

Frequently players who are into the game would rather play the game rather than be the Ref, Officiator, etc....

[NOVA Green]

Meanwhile while we all eagerly await the press reports for the various ensuing military builds, naturally we need to contemplate what war really means...

In another vein, here is a very little known Folk Singer from Southern Oregon, where the "Emerald Triangle" of North Coast California crosses over with the alternative movement in Southern Oregon "Hippy-Redneck" hybrid places.

Saw her live twice when I was Teenager in local venues.

Naturally all nations on Earth would likely be best served by taking all of the money spent on military armaments and instead divert them towards building and not destroying.

[NOVA Green]

Sorry guys, didn't realize we'd just skip the the retreat phase and it would be this urgent to enter the build. Had a pretty busy day yesterday and was never in front of my laptop.

I'm honestly fine dropping out if you want to find someone with more time. I've found the vibe of this game to be a bit unpleasant at times, making it significantly less enjoyable than my previous Diplomacy games. But I can still enter orders for this phase. 

Well I must say that I would be a bit bummed out if your dropped out, and don't believe that I speak for the Minority here.

Sure rules are rules unless overturned by a quorum decision they will remain such so long as you meet your future deadlines.

I do recognize that perhaps you might have "felt the vibe to be a bit unpleasant at times", but at the same time this game format has a different tempo than any previously Atlas Diplomacy again I have ever played.

Tensions run high, international time zones, and lack of proper communication perhaps play a role and quite frankly have been pushing for a (72) Hr. at minimum for future Atlas Diplomacy Games.

Needless to say, perhaps I might have been a bit too pushy when you first entered the game, as I suspect some of the other players remaining likely were as well, but waltzing off because of "vibes", really makes it seem like you didn't understand what you were signing up for.

I'm with Scott on this one, even though he was not a fan of extending the various deadlines to accommodate players in international time-zones.

[NOVA Green]

Naturally Germany should not be punished for failure to submit build orders in a timely fashion, other than the obvious one not being allowed to build a unit until the next build phase.

The only reason I am asking is to ensure that this is not the same as longer term sanctions, such as failing to commit any move orders at all.

In fact, I believe earlier in the game I reached out to Jesse since I was thinking of not making a build during a particular build season for whatever reason and believe that it is totally legit to choose not to build if one wants to, so surely there shouldn't be any further sanctions, even if it were an accidental "lack to build", beyond the obvious of having to sit it out until the next build phase.

I should also note a "forget to build" would not normally be an excuse for not submitting one's orders in a timely fashion, and as such that decision must stand regarding of extenuating circumstances.

I will reiterate once again the unique "up-tempo" nature of this game is particularly difficult, with rapid short deadlines, especially with players in international time zones.

So basically a (24) hour build gets compressed significantly once you cross the pond.

This will not change the rules for this particular game, since thus far there are likely only 2/5 players, although we might have a 3/5 if INBU agrees, this would clearly make a majority, versus the two players in the same time zone who tend to prefer the compressed format.

It is likely too late to change horse there, but certainly for future games I would strongly emphasize a (72) hour move deadline with (48) hours for retreats / builds-disbands to accommodate players living in non Americas time zones, as well as time for players wanting to discuss diplomatic issues, military movements, etc... without being forced to rush and very little time for changes.

[NOVA Green]

While we wait, some White Stripes "Seven Nation Army"

[NOVA Green]

I believe the deadline should be extended until we have a quorum of players, since after all one country acting as a zombie (Especially if they have multiple SCs) would be extremely disruptive to game rules:

1.) Gustaf chooses to rejoin the game, since after all he was not kicked out for lack of responsiveness, but chose to leave voluntarily for whatever reason, which appears to have nothing to do with IRL circumstances, but rather just feelings about perhaps the format of the game, and perhaps the way he feels he has been treated by multiple players on this Game.

2.) A substitute player is found and selected (Although naturally the recruiting process might be a bit more difficult to once again find a third player for Germany, although on paper their military position is not impossible).

3.) If the international time zone issues are a major reason, I have long supported a (72) hour move rule as well as supporting a (48) hour retreat / build-disband rule.

4.) It sounds like GM would be willing to support that if we are looking for either a unanimous consent or majority consent rule order.

5.) Naturally it makes no sense to force retreat / disband orders while we do not have a current player representing Germany.

6.) If so, I will be the next to go immediately so that Turkey and the Ottomans can have their own "Private War", while they carve up the pieces of France and Germany to see who can race across the finish line first to build their giant "Phallic Temples in the Sky" and win an Atlas Solo Diplomacy Game as either the Austrians or the Ottomans.

Calling it quits until this matter is resolved.

Sorry guys and so long for thanks and all the fish...

More than willing to come back in, but yeah I stand with the International Posters who have been screwed over the most by the "Diplomacy on Meth" rules (Which I did agree to play btw).

[NOVA Green]

Should note that although currently am in a "so long and thanks for all the fish" mode and willing to resume game play, it is clear that Gustaf might have some legit grievances involving multiple players (Perhaps even myself included when it comes to "vibes"), and hoping he is willing to come back after a temporary hiatus:

Gustaf was sacrificed on the altars of Atlas Diplomacy as Germany...

His lack of communication was similar to that of INBU and as International Players got screwed by game rules.

These rules directly created major international communication issues with England and then later Germany at times needing real time response.

The lack of accommodation for players of international time zones appears to have been a major gap in the "Diplomacy on Meth Rules" agreed upon.

[NOVA Green]

I suppose the disposition of Germany could factor into the retreat, so very well. I will announce the hiatus right now.

If any of you know anyone on the forum (or even off it, too) who might want to play, please invite them so we can get this ball rolling again!

Please ping me if we get an alternate (Or if Gustaf should choose to return, although by from the sounds of what you have said that is probably unlikely), since my intent was not to just bail, but with a "neutral Germany" without a real player representing them would like just be divvied up by the nearest powers with Armies / Fleets in the area.

Sure one could argue that might be beneficial to me from a certain perspective, but really that's not how the game was meant to be played.

Haven't really looked at "alternate" strategies without a real actual person willing to take over the role of a surviving power which actually has some real assets (As opposed to the 1-Supply Center gig where it is relatively easy to just have the unit HOLD without seriously disrupting game balance) to see if there might be another way this has been dealt with in the past, but open to suggestions.

[NOVA Green]

For what it's worth, on playdiplomacy games cannot be interrupted by powers resign either voluntarily or automatically. The game carries on with the supply centers as deadweight. This doesn't say a whole lot since this is maybe my fourth or fifth game, but I have never played a game that started and ended with the same powers. Powers were often left vacant and the game resumed with its neighbors going for what remained. Obviously that isn't fair because this does not affect every remaining power equally, but even the fact that a substitute has entered will influence how they are approached by their neighbors.

If we can't get a replacement soon, then I can't see a fair way to resolve this besides either all survivors winning automatically or all survivors except for England winning automatically. (I'd prefer the latter approach here; ending with less than what you started with is not a "win" in my opinion and only two powers have actually been eliminated at this stage.)

Germany going into civil disorder would be consistent with the rules. As you say it’s not fair to all players (obviously it would disadvantage me) but those are the breaks. Or we could just call it a draw. I’ve always thought that a draw should include all survivors, whether they have 1 center or 17. But the mention of England raises a thought: if IBNU is still interested in playing, what about letting him take over Germany while England goes into civil disorder? (This isn’t the funny idea that struck me earlier - still need to think about that one).

GM--- this is a brilliant suggestion and could just give you a "virtual kiss" for thinking outside the box.

IF (and a big if) IBNU is interested he would have at minimum the same number (Or unless my math is wrong more supply centers than at the peak of the English Empire).

Naturally, I suspect serious accommodations would need to be made to allow his time zone disadvantage and allow communications with other powers.

Sure, he may or may not have a grudge against me for my previous attacks, but willing to take that lump if need be.

Now that you brought it up GM, another thought would be to look at players who were eliminated from the game who might consider coming back.

If The Mikado is interested perhaps he could play Germany.

I believe Kuumo has some IRL stuff he is working through based upon a couple PMs we exchanged recently, but again coming back into the game as a power with extra SCs compared to the max numbers achieved as Italy might be of interest, if he is able to perhaps have a slightly slower paced timeline than our current game rules.

Thoughts All???

[NOVA Green]

I am putting feelers out there for new players, we'll see how it plays out over the next few days. If nothing comes our way then this partition idea is certainly my preference so long as everyone is interested (as it seems you are).

IBNU is no longer involved in the game, I told him I could keep him on a HOLD pattern since he has some real life stuff keeping him busy and he didn't even respond to that, so I presume he's far too busy to jump back into the game. I messaged Mikado for now.

Any updates from The Mikado?

I understand he has played this game a couple times before, but certainly as a reliable player, who might have faced an early "Gangbang" scenario, plus possibly a couple strategic failures (Which was before I entered the game), perhaps he might be interested in gaining a "Fresh Start" so the speak.

Naturally in these situations one should assume that prior grudges are not active, and will enhance the diplomatic conversations, while also having a player who had played in the past.

[NOVA Green]

Welcome back Kuumo, and happy to see that you could find a schedule / rhythm / and IRL balance to fit Atlas Diplomacy back in your life.

So ALL, I have just posted my permanent retreat orders for the Spring of '08, but just in case Jesse doesn't post this tonight, I suggest we consider it to start the clock for the Fall of '08 for the (72) Hour Move Phase with the date stamp effective now. (Since we only have one player in an international time-zone, he will likely be receiving this Early Morning in SGP, so hence will not face the international time-zone handicap the way the (48) hour rules tended to do), so suggest we move forward immediately.

Here are my official orders not within a strict format, but I imagine that everyone can understand what they mean.

F-Wes Med > North Africa

Game is on...