Forum Dems in denial about 2012 (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 15, 2024, 08:55:29 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Election Archive
  Election Archive
  2012 Elections
  Forum Dems in denial about 2012 (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Forum Dems in denial about 2012  (Read 7197 times)
DS0816
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,200
« on: July 09, 2011, 07:58:27 PM »

Every time I log onto this forum I see frequently mentioned in threads about how Obama is going to win in a landslide “winning states like AZ, MO, and IN, NC again. We can’t be that hackish can we? I mean saying that Obama i going to win more then they did in 2008 is defying the current electoral situation for him. The only reason he came close or win states like MO, IN, NC was due to the global financial meltdown less then 2 months before the election and the sheer unpopularity of Bush.

At this site, I find that *a*s use the word hackish.

Please go back to pollings from 2008 to re-check the timeline. Indiana was pure tossup — after Bush carried it in 2004 by 20.68% — before Obama won his party’s nomination in June. The home state of 2004 Democratic vice-presidential running mate John Edwards, North Carolina was competitive. (It has carried for all D presidents except Bill Clinton, who narrowly missed flipping it in 1992, and then saw Bob Dole get a little more R shift in 1996 — six years prior to wife Liddy winning the U.S. Senate seat vacated by Jesse Helms. Of course, Liddy was unseated six years thereafter by Kay Hagan.) And bellwether Missouri — in Bush’s column by 7.20% — was in play well before this “global financial meltdown less [than] 2 months before the election.”

So glad, though, you used the words “the sheer unpopularity of Bush.”

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Inherited by his Republican predecessor, George W. Bush. Always remember that!

Correction: Democrats did not lose majority control of the Senate.

(Also, the car business is back — and those not in that business have no idea how influential that is to the rest of the country. Jobs recovery is slower than how it should be. But this is the worst the country’s been in since the Great Depression. But, hey, look at how good Bush was at losing us jobs. How many he created.)

Midterms aren’t the same as presidentials. Governorships don’t mean *s*. Was anyone here in 2003 worried about W.’s re-election prospects after his party lost the governorships in Wyoming, Tennessee, Kansas, Arizona, and Oklahoma with the 2002 midterm? (Plus, Michigan and Pennsylvania and bellwether New Mexico, which Bush narrowly missed in 2000? Ditto, in 2001, with Virginia and New Jersey?) And in the 2010 congressional elections, Republicans blew the opportunity to pick up the Senate given it was on the trajectory to do so. (I’m referring to a period before the general that determined party nominees. Charlie Cook forecast the House flip approximately a year in advance! Look at Colorado, Delaware, and Nevada. And let us not forget opportunity with Connecticut and West Virginia — lousy candidates in all. With Colo., pissed away by Ken Buck, the Weld County D.A., who had pollings lead near to the end. Had the party nominated former Lt. Gov. Jane Norton, she would’ve landslided incumbent appointee Michael Bennet — and she would have won the female along with the male vote. Delaware’s Christine O’Donnell took Mike Castle’s roughly-15-point polling lead and reversed it — shifting it a good 30 points away from the party that was on the trajectory to flip Joe Biden’s old seat. And does anyone need reminders of Nevada?)

Please keep in mind that, since the 17th Amendment was adopted nearly 100 years ago, only one president elected to at least two terms never lost same-party control of either house of Congress: Franklin Roosevelt. All the rest did: Woodrow Wilson (House and Senate, 1918); Dwight Eisenhower (House and Senate, 1954); Ronald Reagan (Senate, 1986); Bill Clinton (House and Senate, 1994); George W. Bush (Senate, 2001; House and Senate, 2006). (Richard Nixon never had same-party control of either house of Congress.)

Also keep in mind that, post-17th Amendment, there isn’t a presidential election where the prevailing party saw the House or Senate flip to the losing opposition party. (In other words, Republicans win back the Senate in 2012 only if they’re winning back the White House. Oh, sure, the trend can be bucked: It nearly happened in 2000 when, in a White House party-pickup for the Rs, Team Red went into the election with 54 Senate seats and would up losing four of the Ds that would make Dick Cheney the tie-breaking vote in the next Congress. But I hold that Rs win back the Senate if the White House comes first. Otherwise, it stays with the Ds with a re-election for the president.)

Obama’s job-approval rating isn’t where Bush’s was his last two years in office — below 40% — which put the nail in the coffin for any would-be successor hoping to hold with Election 2008 the White House for the Republican Party.
Logged
DS0816
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,200
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2011, 07:59:05 PM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Look up the subject realigning elections, please. Also: take a look at presidential elections since 1856. You should notice that all those who won a second term — even non-consecutive Grover Cleveland — had an electoral-vote count gain with re-elections, compared to first-term victory. Just one exception to this: 1916 Woodrow Wilson; but consider 1912 Republican rift between the incumbent, William Howard Taft, and his predecessor, Teddy Roosevelt. Teddy reduced Taft down to two states, Utah and Vermont, and he took six that had voted for Taft in 2008: California, Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, and Washington. The rest — plus first-time participants Arizona and New Mexico — ended up in Wilson’s column.  The Rs regrouped for 1916, and that’s why they reduced the electoral-vote count of Wilson, who even lost his home state of New Jersey to challenger Charles Evans Hughes. This was during a realigning period favoring the Rs, from 1896–1928, with Wilson was the only D president.

Yes, of course when Bill Clinton won re-election to a second term in 1996 he became the first Democrat to win that second term since 1936 Franklin Roosevelt. But when Dwight Eisenhower won re-election to a second term in 1956, he became the first Republican to win that second term since 1900 William McKinley. Keep in mind the in-betweens who either died in office, or were replacements who won one full-term election but did not seek a second full term. Mitigating factors. Clinton was the only two-term D president during the realigning period for the Rs of 1968–2004. Ike was the only R president, with two terms (of course), during a realigning period for the Ds, 1932–1964.

You look at today’s two parties, and their latests with presidential elections — and go ahead and hone in popular-vote margin and Electoral College. It’s not the Republicans but the Democrats who have advantage.

The 1970s and 1980s Rs won more than 400 electoral votes in all their victories. In the 2000s, they never reached 300. 1972 Richard Nixon won against unviable George McGovern by a national margin of 23.15%. 1980 Ronald Reagan unseated Jimmy Carter by 9.75% and won re-election, in 1984, by 18.22%. 1988 George W. Bush did what third-consecutive-election party holds normally do — see a significant reduction of support that doesn’t go deep enough for the flip of the White House; he lost about 60% of Reagan’s margin, had an increase only in Tennessee, and beat Dukakis nationally by 7.73% while still reaching 400 in the Electoral College. For the 2000s, his son didn’t beat Al Gore in the popular vote. Bush, Jr. shifted 1996 Bob Dole’s loss of –8.52% by 8.00%, and he came up short at –0.52%. In 2004, and as a wartime president, his shift was only +2.98%, and a national margin victory of 2.46% — historically the lowest for a re-elected incumbent, winning a second term (like with the majority who came before) with gains.

Let us keep in mind that Bush Sr. had more electoral votes combined winning [426] and losing [168] than Bush Jr. had with his two [271 and 286] — that’s 594 to 557. 

With the 1990s’ and 2000s’ winning Democrats, and that neither Bill Clinton or Barack Obama were under 5.50% nationally, and both had 2-to-1 victories in the Electoral College: unseating Bush, Sr. in 1992, Clinton shifted +11.29% of Michael Dukakis’s loss of –7.73% to win the popular vote by a margin of 5.56%. His re-election margin shift was +2.96% so that he beat Bob Dole by 8.52%. (This was mentioned already.) In 2008, Barack Obama shifted 9.72% of John Kerry’s 2004 loss of –2.46% to prevail over John McCain by 7.26%.

I look at this way: There are four scenarios worth consideration for Election 2012…

A) Republican Party wins back the White House. A 7.27% to 9.72% shift of the popular vote, for a national margin between 0.01% and 2.46%. All states that were 2008 Democratic pickups flip back to the Rs. New Hampshire is the bonus state. Electoral-vote count is, once again, under 300. (This would be the case for Rs to win back the Senate. It would come along for the ride.) Since Rs and Ds first battled in 1856, just three party-pickups lost bid for re-election: 1888 Grover Cleveland was unseated by Benjamin Harrison; 1892 saw a rematch and Harrison was, in turn, unseated by Cleveland; 1980 Jimmy Carter was unseated by Ronald Reagan. Both Ds were unseated during realigning periods for the Rs: 1860–1892 and 1968–2004.

B) Democratic bare hold, where Barack Obama becomes first re-elected incumbent with electoral-vote decline since 1916 Woodrow Wilson — despite 2008 being the first election in a realigning period for the Ds. (Due to voting pattern, this scenario is the one I tend to dismiss. If he’s suffering such decline, the electorate tends to let these going-south-numbers make enough of the difference to sweep out the incumbent and/or flip party control.)

C) Democratic retained (variation on status quo), where Obama does some color-trading with select states (no greater than five would be involved). This would come from a modest gain in his popular-vote margin (say, 3 to 5 percent). Theoretically, the R challenger gets the pickup in Indiana (and, perhaps, the 2nd congressional district in Nebraska). D incumbent — who doesn’t lose No. 10 most-populous North Carolina (party’s convention hosting state; Ds have lost in one, while winning the election, since 1960!) — counters with pickups between these three (all in which Obama won the female vote): Missouri (R+0.13%), Montana (R+2.38%), and Georgia (R+5.20%). If any of those three need a substitute, that would come in the form of Arizona (R+8.48%), which is seemingly more of a reach but has been — since its first in 1912 — in the column for all two-term presidents at least once. Ariz. voted with the winner its first five decades (1910s till the 1950s), and gave the flip/carriage to Bill Clinton’s re-election in 1996. (45%/45% was the male/female support for Obama in 2008. Females drew back, after giving John Kerry 47%, to give more support for home son John McCain.) Electoral vote — with consideration to reallocation — would go from 365, in 2008, to somewhere in the 370s but not beyond the 380s.

D) Democratic landslide. If this scenario were to play out in 2012, it would make Barack Obama just the fifth two-termer — given R-vs.-D. — to retain every state won in first election and build from there. (The other four were 1864 Abraham Lincoln, 1936 Franklin Roosevelt, 1972 Richard Nixon, and 1984 Ronald Reagan. What would enable this is a bomb of an opposition party’s nominee. That explained all four others, against George McClellan, Alf Landon, George McGovern, and Walter Mondale.) Basically, he’d pick up nearly all or every state in John McCain’s column by 10 points or less: Mo., Mont., Ga., Ariz., plus South Dakota (R+8.45%), North Dakota (R+8.65%), South Carolina (R+8.95%), and the 1st congressional district in Nebraska. Possibly, outside the single digit, select others under 20%, like Texas, Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, West Virginia, Louisiana, Nebraska (statewide or whole), and Kansas; well… it would stem from essentially doubling his national 2008 margin of 7.26%. Electoral vote would shoot past the 400 mark.
Logged
DS0816
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,200
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2011, 08:16:28 PM »

This election still has plenty of turns.  One big one coming up will be the debt ceiling.  It's quite possible crafty Republicans will bankrupt the country and spin it as the O's fault.

But Kevin makes a good point, a Democratic President has not won re-election since Bill Clinton.  And we all know how many Democratic Presidents we've had in between Obama and Clinton.

No, it's not a good point. See 1956 Dwight Eisenhower.
Logged
DS0816
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,200
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2011, 03:22:38 AM »

Obama will face a terrible Republican challenger. It will be simmilar to Bush's re-election. Things weren't going great for Bush in '04, but the Democrats picked a terrible candidate that let Bush actually improve on his pop vote

Republicans have no good candidate, and presidential elections are very personal

He had nowhere to go but up. He missed the popular vote by –0.52% in 2000. It's not like he was going to get –0.51% in 2004.
Logged
DS0816
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,200
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2011, 03:27:04 AM »

However, the last Democrat to win reelection was Bill Clinton in good times, and even he didn't surpass his electoral vote margin in his second run.

Yes he did.

Well my mistake but he did lose alot ground in many places in comparison to 92.

So have Republicans who performed better in their first election than re-election in some bellwether and interior mountain states. Go look at 1984 and 2004.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.027 seconds with 11 queries.