Democratic vs Representative Senate (user search)
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  Democratic vs Representative Senate (search mode)
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Author Topic: Democratic vs Representative Senate  (Read 1451 times)
muon2
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« on: October 10, 2018, 11:38:42 AM »

The Senate is undemocratic at it's foundation.   The idea of the states themselves being represented in the Federal Government and not the "people of" the states being represented is an antiquated, outdated model going back to fiefdom and feudalism.

The entire system needs to be revamped from the ground up.   Having a smaller body of the legislature (fewer members) is a good thing for things like confirmations and as a check on an over zealous House...but the Senators should not be representing such enormously different groups of people (Wyoming having the same number of Senators as California is a travesty for example).

Right. The Senate could work with no changes to membership rules if it was primarily advisory, i.e., it had powers roughly equivalent to those given to the Canadian Senate or the British House of Lords. In that case, it could also probably go back to being an appointed body. As it is, where it is as powerful or more powerful than the House in almost all ways, it would need to be thrown out entirely to be fair.

One should remember that the Senate was never intended to be a democratic body. It was intended to be representative of the sovereign states, much as the Council of the EU is represents the member states and acts in parallel with the Parliament of the EU to pass legislation. In that sense it's no more outdated than the EU.

If one looks at the EU as a model, then making the Senate a democratic or appointed body doesn't capture the need to represent sovereign states. Instead one could require more sophisticated rules for the Senate to pass or block legislation. For example, the Council requires 55% of the governments and 65% of the population to pass legislation from the Parliament. That's not dissimilar from the 60% cloture rule for legislation in the Senate, so it wouldn't take that much change to correct for population as the EU does.
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muon2
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2018, 12:07:04 PM »


I don't think the EU is a good model at all; the EU has necessarily very decentralized power because it's a bunch of countries cobbling together a union where many of them have very distinctive cultures and histories and independent power and political structures from one another. The US isn't really like that at all; the states are all fundamentally the same as one another (same parties and political systems, shared history, very similar cultures) when compared to the differences between the countries of the EU. Moreover, long-term, I think the EU should move away from a focus on its constituent nations, which is part of the problem of the EU being seen by many as fundamentally non-democratic.

I agree that the Senate would be fine as an appointed body if its power were substantially reduced to being purely an advisory entity, though, and maybe even would be improved right now by transitioning back to being an appointed body, though I don't really view the elected vs. appointed distinction as all that significant when it comes to the problems with the Senate.

This is about governance, not culture. I think you discount how much sovereign power still lies with each US state and how different their state constitutions are. There are actually 50 sets of state parties, with the umbrella of the two national parties. The state parties are often quite different in their priorities but recognize the need to coordinate at the national level. It's why there's no national primary election for president.
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