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  National Healthcare System? (search mode)
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Author Topic: National Healthcare System?  (Read 18821 times)
muon2
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« on: May 28, 2004, 02:32:56 PM »

No to any government interference in health care.

I have to support goverment intervention, the private sector failed.  It is too hard to start up a new insurance company, so we now have a cartel of sorts that can charge whatever it wants.  I'm not mad at them, they just want to get paid and I undestand that, but we all need to recognize that a system that allows them to do this is not a good one.

... The constitution says "Provide for the general welfare". I base a healthcare system on that premise.

Pieman makes some excellent observations on the disconnect between the patients and the payers. Let me start with some comments on the patient side.

The great success of modern health care over the last 50 years have greatly raised expectations by the public. I disagree that mere economic pressure will cause the consumers of health care to become sufficiently educated in their choices. Without that, the market fails. I also agree with John D. Ford's rough analysis of the impact on business - we do pay a price in competition because companies place this extra cost on their labor. This is another example of expectations getting so high that the market fails. A draconian solution would lead to a market crash - a collapse of the health care industry and the level of care that the country expects.

An analogy that might be useful is to compare health care to police security. If there is a crime, people expect an immediate and complete response from local government. They expect the use of best technology used to its complete extent by trained professionals. They recognize the limits of a locality to provide all the latest gadgetry, but expect that keeping up with national standards remains a high priority. Local residents also know that security can be augmented with higher government agencies and private suppliers of alarms and security personnel. Large companies may find it more cost effective to make extensive use of the private sector, even as local police forces are available and come when called. Oh, and did I mention accountability - local elected officials are usually very accountable.

What if medicine followed the same model? Counties or cities (maybe some states) could support the level and types of service that is appropriate for their residents. Counties and cities frequently run health departments now. The new expanded role would be in the form of a primary payer to government or private doctors and hospitals. Federal and state support for groups like the poor and elderly would provide some balance between counties with large indigent populations. Direct private insurance and health providers would still exist as enhancements available to those who choose the extra service.
The public as a whole would get the kind of improvement they expect without having to become expert consumers.  Doctor could work in the public or private sector. The big insurers would seem to be the losers, but there would be nothing that prevents them from selling insurance products to governments providing the health care. Many governments maintain insurance for their varied activities now.

This might be an easier method to implement as well. Many existing structures would remain. Initial taxes would probably come from a mix of sources, but corporate taxes would be an important source since the goverment would be relieving the companies of the need to provide health insurance. The local nature of service allows smaller scale implementation, and avoids many pitfalls of national systems that are sometimes proposed. Even the EU doesn't provide a single health care system across all of Europe.
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muon2
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2004, 04:53:07 PM »

If you are poor you get all the good benefits of goverment. If you are rich you can afford it so it doesnt matter. But if you are stuck on the lower middle end like I am you are basically screwed. Just my opinion.

I agree. The line the separates poor from lower middle is completely arbitrary and contribute to the broken health care market. The lifetime employment with a single firm assumed for the current health care system is hopelessly out-of-date.

I think that a US-wide system will be overly cumbersome with too many inefficiencies. A plan with a local element will better respond to the needs of residents.
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muon2
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« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2004, 11:40:35 PM »

This is very interesting! I like muon2's idea quite a lot, although Ford and States have good points as well. Which brings me to my main point...

Why, with all these good ideas about health care floating around - and all from Republicans, at that - are we continually locked in a debate between the left-wing 'Single-Payer Canadian System NOW!' and the right-wing 'NO To Socialized Medicine!' positions?!

What's up with this, anyway? There's more clever fixes in this thread than have been produced by the last fifty years of Congressional and Presidential debate! Why can't America settle this issue?
-a perplexed WMS Huh
We've forgotten to let the states be the laboratories of our representative democracy. The national media will naturally focus on national solutions, creating a polarized view. Historically many good ideas bubble up from the states when the media was driven at that level (primarily through the newspapers.)
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muon2
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2004, 11:21:26 PM »

Healthcare is NOT a "right".

HHS is unconstitutional.

Darwinism baby!
Yeah! And protection by military and police forces is not a "right".

Defend yourself you loser!

RWN - Don't confuse rights (speech, arms, trials, etc.) eith government functions. The Bill of Rights restricts government to protect the basic liberties of our nation. The function of government is to provide services and are established by the framework of the Constitution that predates the Bill of Rights.

Defense is clearly a service provided by the government. The regulation of interstate commerce is vague but also constitutional. State and local jurisdictions also have mandates to provide certain services that may be enshrined in stae constitutions and statutes. In IL all localities are REQUIRED to protect the health, safety and welfare of their residents by passing appropriate ordinances. Needless to say, it is difficult to balance this mandate for services against the preservation of rights.
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muon2
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2004, 10:10:03 PM »

The marketplace always finds the most profitable solutions. If we make value based healthcare profitable, it will flourish.

We can return to value based healthcare by putting the patient (with good medical advice) back in the position of making the choices.

Encouraging High-deductible insurance in combination with 401K-like medical savings accounts would allow the marketplace to work to encourage value based decision making.


 
Those are excellent points, but who pays for the insurance?

I believe that a system where the employers pay is hopelessly outdated and fails a market-based test. Leaving it to each individual may sound resoanble, but also fails the market since public expectations do not allow the market to act with full knowledge on behalf of both buyer and seller. This causes a market failure here as well.

For me that leave a government entitiy to purchase insurance. Personally, I'd like to keep that as local as possible, with the only national mandate to be for portability from state to state.
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muon2
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2004, 11:41:29 PM »

Public expectations will quickly adapt, if give the opportunity.

I am always leary of placing the government in control. Although I am not a big fan of insurance companies, at least the government can step in when needed to tweak the system. If we give control to the government, we will NEVER get it back.

Having somebody else pay the premiums just creates another layer of bureacracy. We have to face the fact that healthcare is not cheap and we have to pay for it, either directly or indirectly.

If we pay for it directly, each individual gets to choose how much we pay and how much healthcare we get.  

If we let the government pay, the government gets to decide how much YOU will pay and how much healthcare YOU will get.

There is no free lunch. Our only hope in reduce the overall cost that everyone has to pay is to support a system that encourages value choices. What we have now or a gov't paid program does not encourage value choices.
I'd love to agree with you, but we are already paying the premiums indirectly. The problem is that the indirect payers are a hopeless hodgepodge. Sometimes it's the government (Medicare, Medicaid, other state programs), often it is business as the employer (which can be the government). Very rarely is there a direct payer involved anymore.
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muon2
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2004, 12:48:38 AM »

What is everyones idea for a Healthcare system? Here is my idea :

a) If you have insurance your insurance company would be required to pay 80/20 automatically. On top of that the govt would pay 50% of your 20%. For example if your medical bill was 100$ the insurance company would pay 80 dollars, the govt 10 and you pay 10. Medicines would be 90% covered by the govt with 10% owed by the patient.

b) No Insurance to government would pay 80%. Medicine would be covered fully.

c) Dental and Vision would be 90% covered.

With this hypothetical system I think fraud could be kept to a minimum, because I think 100% coverage for all Americans would create cases of fraud and would probably bankrupt the system over time. I would also set a standard insurance payment to keep insurance companies from rising their costs to astronomical numbers. I see this as a good compromise to all or none. Please feel free to add or tear this idea apart as necessary. I am curious as to what everyone thinks.

It is pretty good. However, REALISTICALLY, the only way we can afford it is if taxes are rolled back to the Clinton levels or taxes on business and the wealthy go up.

If healthcare is no longer an expected benefit of a job, then businesses will see substantial savings in labor costs. It isn't unreasonable that part of that savings go to fund state/local healthcare systems. The remainder of the savings will improve competiveness in the global economy.
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