China vs. India

[Sbane]

While it is fair to criticize India for it's poverty, I can't believe you guys are trying to blame it on the "bourgeoise". The problem is people with belief systems similar to snowstalker have been in charge of India for a long, long time. India has been a closed, socialist state with an out of control bureaucracy which has led to many of the problems you see today. To create better living conditions for your people you need money, and you can't have money without economic growth. And you can't have economic growth when the government won't allow businesses to function. The only reason India has done well in the last decade is because the politicians didn't understand the IT sector and didn't regulate it. Another reason is reforms pushed through by the BJP government which led to booms in sectors such as telecom. India may have a crap ton of poor people, but most of them have a cell phone now. Yay capitalism!

To help those poor people gain more than just a cell phone, more reforms are needed. Hopefully the new government will be able to push those through. One of the biggest reforms that would help the poor would be to get rid of the current system of distributing free food to the poor and transitioning to a system similar to food stamps here in the US. Give people money to go buy food from whomever they wish to get it from. Currently, the middleman government workers in charge of distributing it sell the good food at market rates, pocket the profits, and give the rotten food to the poor.

Speaking of rotten food, more investment needs to be allowed in the agricultural sector so a cold supply chain can be created. Right now almost half the produce in India rots because people are transporting it in rickety bicycles and rickshaws. Allow companies like Walmart and others to get involved and create a proper supply chain so that farmers can actually get their produce to market without it rotting.

Lastly, we have the literacy problem. This is where the social problems of India do get in the way of progress. In the rural areas the low caste communities get the sh**ttiest schools and sometimes the classroom is actually out in the open. The blame for this should again go to the middlemen who are part of a socialist party that claims to care for the poor, but in practice help reinforce age old prejudices in order to gain political power. There is also a discrepancy in the literacy rate between men and women which is in part due to the patriarchal north Indian society and also due to the muslim community. Solving the literacy problem is probably the hardest, and also the most important. More people moving to the cities is a good thing, but staffing government schools with competent individuals is also a huge issue. Just like the unions here in America, the teachers unions in India are strong and once you get the job, you basically can't be fired even if you don't show up to teach half the time.

Also it should be noted that it is in the best interests of socialist parties to keep people poor and illiterate. That way they can keep blaming others like businesses, capitalists, neoliberals etc for poverty and gain votes from the poor.

[Sbane]

TLDR version: Stop saying ignorant sh**t.

[Sbane]

Protection in developed states is silly, but it has historically been the best path for home industrialization--see the United States, Russia, China, and really much of Europe.

I am not saying that India should allow unfettered access to the Indian market for foreign companies, but rather allow Indian companies that lack capital access to foreign capital markets. You do that by allowing partnerships where foreign companies can own up to 49%.

That being said, the problem in many sectors is that there is too much regulation for businesses to do anything or the government is in complete control of those sectors. The government is protecting Indian businesses, it is keeping them in a straightjacket. Do you really think the government should be running phone companies and airlines? Back during British rule, Air India used to be one of the best airlines in the world and current industry leaders such as Singapore Airlines came to learn from them. It was forced to become a government entity not long after independence and now it is the laughingstock of the world.

[Sbane]

In all fairness, Sbane, even during the 70s and 80s, Air India (and Pakistan International Airlines, for that matter) were supposedly two of the best airlines in the world. Now they're both complete jokes.

Both of them, undoubtedly, have been hurt by the emergence of Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar Airways.

Corruption is another reason for Air India's decline. Business seats being blocked for politicians and their families, forcing Air India to create inefficient jobs etc. Another reason is the lack of business travel into India. With Indira basically closing off the economy, it is not surprising Air India really went down the drain around that time. I don't think you can blame the middle eastern carriers though. Their growth is a more recent phenomenon.

[Sbane]

[...]

I have the feeling that you are talking about real problems, but that you decide to see them through a socialism vs capitalism prism that is not really relevant there.

Ideology does matter. It is especially important for outsiders to understand the context of contemporary India. For outsiders not familiar with India, it can certainly seem like the country doesn't care about its poor people and that there are no social services provided to them. On the contrary all the services are in place. Every Indian gets a ration card which entitles them to get food from the government run supply store. The problem is that due to corruption and perverse incentives, most of the good stuff is sold on the market and the rotten food stuffs is given to the poor. Also, since they can't get this food from any store, there are problems with access in rural areas. That is why almost half of India's children are malnutritioned, not because there are no social services provided to them. Same goes with government hospitals. The government shouldn't be running the place, but rather subsidizing the care for the poor. It is because of ideology that India has made all these poor decisions and you can't blame it on the caste system or on colonialism.

In addition, these services require money in order to provide to such a large population. And you can't have money if you pursue policies that inhibit economic growth. Also the tax system needs reform but I'll save that for another rant.

[Sbane]

In all fairness, Sbane, even during the 70s and 80s, Air India (and Pakistan International Airlines, for that matter) were supposedly two of the best airlines in the world. Now they're both complete jokes.

Both of them, undoubtedly, have been hurt by the emergence of Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar Airways.

Corruption is another reason for Air India's decline. Business seats being blocked for politicians and their families, forcing Air India to create inefficient jobs etc. Another reason is the lack of business travel into India. With Indira basically closing off the economy, it is not surprising Air India really went down the drain around that time. I don't think you can blame the middle eastern carriers though. Their growth is a more recent phenomenon.

I disagree. You can completely attribute some of Air India and PIA's troubles to the Middle Eastern carriers. Let me clarify that, like you're suggesting, Air India and PIA were already in trouble before these carriers emerged. That is completely true. But these carriers have literally derailed Air India and PIA's chances at revitalization. Ironically, Emirates' first planes were loaned to it by PIA. Talk about creating your own Frankenstein.

Let's also look at some of the private airlines in India -- take Jet Airways for example -- they are now essentially a satellite carrier for Etihad.

Karachi used to be an incredibly busy airport, but the emergence of Dubai as an aviation hub (along with Karachi's poor political climate in the 1990s to a lesser extent) killed that off. Emirates, for example, flies six flights a day to Karachi and floods the market with Boeing 777s and Airbus A330s, which fly mostly full due to dirt cheap fairs they offer. Their planes are incredibly clean (can't say the same for either Air India or PIA), they are generally on time (again, can't say the same), and their service is top-notch. PIA simply cannot compete anymore at what is supposed to be its biggest hub. Put this into perspective: Emirates wanted to fly the Airbus A380 to Karachi. When Pakistan's CAA informed them that Karachi was not ready to handle the plane, there was discussion that Emirates had offered to pay for the renovations to make the airport A380 ready.

Pakistan and India were the first two countries Emirates served and are two of Emirates' major markets. A large part of this is because Emirates flies to secondary cities in both countries as well. There is no need to transfer (and thank goodness, because who wants to do that?) in either Mumbai or Delhi anymore if I'm aiming to get to Kozhikode. I can go through Dubai and not deal with the hassle of transferring from the domestic to international terminals in either Mumbai or Delhi (which used to be literally the worst experience ever). This has certainly become easier now with T3 in Delhi and T2 in Mumbai, but why do that when you can fly through Dubai? Emirates (and the other Middle Eastern carriers) have saturated travel from North America and Europe to South Asia, which is why US-India nonstop flights have largely been unsuccessful, why European carriers are routinely bitter, and why Air India and PIA have both had issues filling their planes for long-haul flights to Europe and the USA. This is why the Indian government (until recently) and the Pakistani government have tried to avoid allowing Middle Eastern carriers to fly A380s to both countries. Both national airlines are already in financial messes, and are unable to compete. Imagine if they're competing against twice as many seats.

I agree that it will be hard for Air India or PIA to compete with the middle eastern carriers today but it doesn't explain their decline since the 1970s or so. As someone who flew Qatar airways to India recently, I certainly agree it is a much more pleasant experience than flying through Delhi or Mumbai, even if there is a Mcdonalds in the terminal now to cure your jet lag induced 4AM munchies.