The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[dead0man]

<whinging deleted>

See, you are MUCH better at being a bully than you are at debate, stick to that.

[dead0man]

I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

I have no idea how'd react, but I can guarantee you one funking thing, my grand kids wouldn't still be "refugees" firing rockets across the Missouri River 70 years later.

So what do you think the Palestinians should do? I think the only obvious solution to go is the non-violent resistance route and shame Israel into giving them their own autonomous land,

That's exactly what I've always suggested.  If they go all Gandhi, Israel will have no choice but to let them, and I have no doubt that they would.

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I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

[dead0man]

link-Institute for Palestine Studies

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This was from 2012.  Weird that the UN (nor anybody outside of this report AFAICT) haven't made a stink about these refugee child slave labor deaths.

It also mentions that each tunnel costs between $80k and $200k.  Imagine if those millions had been spent on, say, I don't know, infrastructure?  Paying employees?  Throwing it in the air over the closest market?  Education?  But alas, it's more important to try and sneak into Israel and kidnap/murder some Juice.

[dead0man]

but can you not understand why Palestinians might be just a tad bit pissed off by this situation that was imposed on them? Germany and others in Europe orchestrate the holocaust. Then they eff over the Palestinians to make themselves feel better. Yay colonialism!

I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

More like typical human behavior.

Is it though?  A lot of refugees were created around the same time, yet few of them have grandchildren fighting the same fight grandpa did.  India/Pakistan is the only other one I can think of off the top of my head....and I'm pretty sure India wouldn't sit back and let rockets be fired at their civilians either.

[dead0man]

Of course, the Zionists benefit as long as the Arabs aren't truly united.  (It was lack of Arab unity along with massive overconfidence that led to heavy corruption that let Israel survive 1948 in the first place.)  A united Arab regime with the patience to wait until Israel no longer has military superiority is what will most likely extinguish the State of Israel.  Won't happen for at least fifty years and more likely longer than that, but Israel will not always have military superiority over its neighbors, yet the Zionists act like they will.

and I'm not so sure about this either.  Have you ever read Why Arabs Lose Wars?  Very informative.  The short of it is:
A.their officers suck/are afraid to take initiative
B.they (generally) don't have NCOs, the backbone of any good military
C.they don't care about maintenance or training
D.they don't understand their enemy and don't try to learn
E.they don't trust anybody
F.the Army doesn't talk to the Air Force in battle, hell one Army division won't talk to another Army division in battle, much less communication between states


There would need to be a large cultural change in how they fight if they ever think they could win against any modern military, especially one that knows how they operate.

[dead0man]

Eh, likening this to India and Pakistan is a stretch, I'd say.

sure sure, but I was just saying that was the only large refugee situation from the time frame that is still "hot" today.

[dead0man]

Most refugees are able to assimilate into another culture. (Or at least prosper within another culture.)  For various reasons, the Palestinians have been denied that outlet by and large.  The refugees from the partition of India weren't herded into camps.

Israel gets ALL the blame for this, but there are at least 4 other countries that should share that blame.  Not that I don't get why they don't (and it's not just because they support the Palestinians right of return either).*

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Perhaps.  Do you think India should give it up now? (that is NOT a loaded question re-the Israel/Palestinian situation)




*too many negatives in there, but I think it makes sense

[dead0man]

One can generally predict a tone of an article on this just by someone's name...

RACIST!

[dead0man]

One can generally predict a tone of an article on this just by someone's name...

RACIST!

If someone said this about a Jewish writer.....

My apologies - that was an excessive generalisation.

FTR, I was joking.

[dead0man]

By the standards of a western democracy, Israel's current actions are horrible and disgusting.

I totally don't understand how this is just a "known" thing.  How do you think a European country would act in the same situation?  Do you guys REALLY think Germany would send an angry letter if missiles were launched at their civilians every few days (and that's during the "cold" part of the conflict)?  Or if there were tunnels built (that again cost many millions and use child slave labor to construct where hundreds have died) for the sole purpose of kidnapping/murdering your civilians?  What action(s) have Western democracies done to make people think they wouldn't take action in such a scenario.

[dead0man]

Then maybe by the standards of a western democracy, Israel's current actions are not horrible and disgusting, maybe they are normal?

[dead0man]

I agree that the settlements should be stopped and in many places, rolled back, but that's not why Hamas is currently shooting rockets.

[dead0man]

They have never offered to agree to a two-state solution. Nothing but the Palestinian flag flying over a Jew-free Tel Aviv is acceptable to them.

Have they even been formally asked about it?

Of course they have.  A million times.  Sometimes one of them will even say it's possible before quickly being corrected by a higher up.

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It's sad that you know so much about Israel's actions this past decade but don't know if Hamas has been asked about a 2 state solution.  Not surprising, but certainly sad.

[dead0man]

Prove it. I am curious to know when and where the discussions took place. I thought Hamas was a terrorist organization no one wants to talk with?

google search results
random NY Times link from 2011

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Notice that part at the end?  Even they admit (with the silence) that the violence will continue even if Israel gives into their unreasonable demands.

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I meant decades, in plural.
[/quote]My apologies for misreading, makes you look even worse though.  You know about decades worth of Israeli actions, but don't know that Hamas talks to other people or that the 2 state solution has been brought up to them before.

[dead0man]

Can't tell if sarcasm or....

[dead0man]

You have great skill in selective reading.

[dead0man]

It's kind of funny that even the Jewish terrorists called before hand to warn people.

To answer your question, I would have been against the terrorists, just like most Zionists were at the time.

[dead0man]

It's not a good sign that so many people on your side are so ignorant of the history.  Anyway....
cite the 1st

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2nd link

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[dead0man]

Bolded items emphasis mine. Calling the hotel operator is fair warning?

It's MUCH more than Hamas gives.

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You might not have heard, but that was just another Pallywood story.  google link

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If you have something pointing the other way, I'd like to see it.

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Like I've also repeatedly said, they need to go the Gandhi, MLK Jr way.  Clearly launching rockets at civilians (I said it again...repeating facts is fun!) doesn't get them what they want (other than the PR deaths of their own of course).

Why do you think murdering civilians is better than the peaceful way?

[dead0man]

Like I've also repeatedly said, they need to go the Gandhi, MLK Jr way.

African-Americans in 1960s America and Indians under the British Raj were deprived of many political rights, but their economic and humanitarian situations were far better than anything Gazans experience. Quite frankly, the Palestinians would be so lucky if Israel paid half the attention to them that the British did to the Indians. The British left India an infrastructure of bureaucracy and civil institutions that mimicked those of Britain or any other developed Western country - they were spared the hellish post-colonial strife of places like sub-Saharan Africa. Israel has done the opposite - they've more or less guaranteed that Gaza and the West Bank are wholly ungovernable by the Palestinians or by Israel.

Israel provides clean water, electricity and jobs.  The Gazans could provide these things themselves with the billions given to them over the years, but instead they forced children to dig tunnels until they died.  Tunnels that cost many many millions of dollars.  Those dollars could have been spent fixing sh**t, instead it goes towards murder.  The people preventing Gaza from being governable are the people in charge in Gaza.

If they, like you, continue to think murder is better than peace, then they will continue the status quo.  That's perfectly acceptable to the leaders, most of which live very comfortably in Qatar, London, etc far away from the place where their actions have consequences.  It's much less acceptable to the Palestinians living on the ground.  I hope that the people on the ground can remove the bastards, I fear they wont for lack of incentives and opportunity.

[dead0man]

Ceasefire due to run out soon, and noises wrt its renewal don't sound exactly wonderful.

Hamas ended it a few hours early.

[dead0man]

le sigh

[dead0man]

le sigh

Are you really surprised?

Me?  God no.  I've known how the child murdering bastards operate for as long as I've been aware of the topic.  It's the UN/UNRWA, Human Rights Watch, etc that can't seem to understand (despite some of them being RIGHT FUNKING THERE).

[dead0man]

Not really in the mood for what I'm guessing is a tres graphic video at the moment; what does it show?

Nothing graphic.  Some French news network was broadcasting from their hotel next to the UN building when some rockets were launched dozens of feet away from him, scaring the bejeezus out of him.  Then going back the next day to look at it, showing kids playing with the barrels, panning the camera a bit to show the UN flag 100 yards away.  There was a very similar one from an Indian news network a few days ago.  Really, the most shocking thing is that Hamas let the video get out.

[dead0man]

Hamas are a really incompetent terrorist group at times.

FWIW, there's a great article on the BBC site about how the casualty figures should be taken with some degree of caution:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Of course.  I didn't think anybody did take those numbers seriously apart from your bigots like snow and those only half paying attention like Texasindy and swl.

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The exact thing happened after Lebanon too.