Alexander Hamilton vs Thomas Jefferson

[Orser67]

I have mixed feelings but overall positive opinions about both; they're probably my two least favorite of the big six Founding Fathers (Washington, Franklin, Madison Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton). Hamilton gets a lot of credit for establishing a working financial system, and Jefferson obviously loses points for being a slaveholder. With all that said, I'd still go with Jefferson. Although I'd favor Hamilton on a lot of the specific policies in question, the key difference between Jefferson's Democratic-Republicans and Hamilton's Federalists was actually about the type of society they envisioned: Hamilton favored a quasi-aristocratic society, while Jefferson had a more egalitarian vision. It was the triumph of Jeffersonianism that led to the enfranchisement of all (white) men in the United States, and to the popular election of the president in all but one state by 1832.

[Orser67]

But while slavery was a cogent force in American society in 1790, and especially after 1820 was a serious political issue, it was not a partisan issue. To try to depict the politics of the early republic as a struggle between pro-slavery Republicans and anti-slavery Federalists, to state that the Jeffersonian coalition was made up only of wealthy slaveholders and racist white Southerners, or that the Federalist party had a coherent position on slavery, or was a platform for anti-slavery action, is a backwards-looking view of history which ignores the actual views of the majority of Americans at that time, and therefore necessarily misunderstands their motivations. However much individuals may have privately abhorred slavery, the founding generation was not willing to risk the Union for the sake of ending it, and slavery was not an issue in national politics until the 1840s.

Well said. There were a couple of flare-ups (the Missouri Compromise being the most notable), but slavery didn't really start to become a consistently important issue at the federal level until (at the earliest) the debate over the gag rule during Jackson's second term. And it didn't become the key issue in national politics until, at the very earliest, the introduction of the Wilmot Proviso in 1846.

Also it's notable that, as president, Jefferson led the passage of a ban on the international slave trade (doing so as soon as the Constitution allowed it).

[Orser67]

While I am on the subject of Webster, since Truman mentioned Calhoun beginning as a Hamiltonian National Republican, Webster became as a free trading Jeffersonian who only became a National Republican/Whig after he moved to Massachusetts. He was originally from NH, a staunchly Jeffersonian state and one that would remain a Democratic stronghold until the 1850's.

I broadly agree with the most of the rest of what you're saying, but I don't think it's the case that Webster was ever a Jeffersonian or that NH was staunchly Jeffersonian. It's true that NH became a Democratic stronghold in the Second Party System (i.e. 1828-1852), but it voted for the Federalist candidate in four of the six presidential elections from 1796 to 1816; the only time it voted for the Jeffersonian was in the landslides of 1804 and 1816. By contrast, it voted for the Democrat in every election from 1832 to 1852. So New Hampshire may have been staunchly Jacksonian, but at the very least it would be an exaggeration to call it staunchly Jeffersonian during the time Webster lived there.

As for Webster, Remini's 1997 book on him states both Webster and his father were Federalists (at least by the time Webster attended Dartmouth in his late teens) who strongly supported John Adams, feared the radicalism of the French Revolution, and favored a strong central government. IIRC the part you mentioned about trade is true, though; he didn't start to favor high tariffs until much later in life.

[Orser67]

As a side note, I think it's always dangerous to use something like "Hamilton wanted government intervention into the economy" and use it as a proxy for his ideology without dissecting it ... the guy wanted the government to create an economic engine that could fuel private business and enterprise to a point where the American business community and economy as a whole could go toe to toe with anyone in the world

It's oddly appropriate that Hamilton has being embraced by conservative hawks and neoliberal elites; given that Hamilton wanted to use the Quasi War to set up a military dictatorship.

Yeah, both of these quotes point to the side of Hamilton that I think is being downplayed in the current cultural moment. I personally think that Hamilton deserves a lot of credit for helping to establish a working federal government (in contrast to the government of the Articles of Confederation), and his rags-to-riches story is worthy of admiration. But he's also someone who was closely allied with the mercantile elite, supported the Alien and Sedition Acts, favored a full-on and probably costly war with France (as opposed to the IRL Quasi-War), and favored crushing the Whiskey Rebellion (we got somewhat lucky as a country in that the rebellion ultimately ended without much of a fight), frequently attacked his opponents for supposedly being atheists, and was far more skeptical of democracy than many of his contemporaries.