Let's have a calm, polite and substantial discussion about gender and sex

[Marokai Backbeat]

I also detest feminism in all its forms. (For what it's worth, I would probably detest masculinism equally, should I ever encounter its existence.)  I embrace egalitarianism--which definitely should not ever be confused with feminism, and I suggest that others consider it as well. Egalitarianism means equal rights and equal treatment under the law.  It does not recommend a pretense that men and women are the same.

While I wouldn't go as far as you did with the rest of your post, and while "detest" is a bit too strong of a word for me, I'll say that I roughly agree with this.

[Marokai Backbeat]

THIS IS GOING TO BE LONG AND RAMBLE-Y AND PERHAPS INCOMPREHENSIBLE AND I APOLOGIZE.

Not sure why feminism is such a bad word.

I consider "feminism" as a term, and as a movement, unnecessary in 2013, and needlessly divisive and negative in general. I don't believe in the "patriarchy" and I don't believe in "rape culture." I don't think modern feminism is at all well equipped to handle the issues it's supposed to be solving, because as a movement it seems to waste more time complaining about things and finding people to blame, rather than coming up with actual solutions.

Latter day feminists fought for the right to vote and for social equality to men, and modern day feminists fight over the cover of People magazine and whether or not women are well represented in video games. It's such a dead-ender movement at this point that represents more of a petty special interest group than a real social movement.

I mean, just look at this thread for one reason I dislike feminism. Is it really about "equality of the sexes"? The name itself perpetuates gender roles by dividing individuals between masculine/feminine. Is that implying that feminine values are superior to masculine values? How does that lead to equality?

I believe in gender equality; the idea that men and women should be treated the same and have equal rights and privileges. That a woman should be able to treat me like anyone else, and I should be able to treat a woman like anyone else. That if I make a joke about a guy, and no one bats an eye at it, I should be able to make the same joke about a woman, or use the same terminology toward a woman, without someone getting creeped out and defensive by it. That idea is what gender equality means to me, and what I think it actually means. Instead, feminism is a movement that purports to support gender equality by only obsessively focusing on the needs/supposed-needs of only their gender.

Men have actual, checkable problems when it comes to being treated equally in society as well, but feminists don't really seem to bothered by it. Men get charged more for car insurance. Men get sentenced more severe punishments than women for equivalent crimes. Men are disproportionately sided against in custody cases. Domestic violence against men is widespread, but not taken nearly as seriously. Significantly more women graduate college than men do, and this is hailed as a great thing; but how is that equal? Shouldn't we be doing more to encourage men to enter higher education and graduate?

Feminism has no interest in solving those things, because it doesn't view them as that significant of a problem. That's just past 'male privilege' finally getting it's comeuppance.

There's also the fact that feminism seems to have this bizarre, prudish attitude toward accepting male and female sexuality, and sees any sexualized content in pop culture as somehow and without exception, demeaning to women. (Which leads me to believe that feminism seems to have utter contempt for women; apparently all expressions of female sexuality are just because they're silly, stupid girls just trying to serve men? Women can't be sexual in their own right?)

I hate throwing out random words from a word salad that some people probably think has no meaning; but I'm an egalitarian. Problems between the sexes will be solved when everyone simply treats them the same, irrespective of the sex. This isn't a "women's issue" it's a human issue. When individuals here grow up, and potentially have children (a frightening thought, perhaps), don't raise your children by saying "Timmy, don't you ever hit a woman." Raise them by saying "Timmy, don't you ever hit anyone."

Perhaps what is most destructive to this conversation is that feminists have successfully made mainstream the notion that nothing a man says can ever be considered in this conversation, unless, of course, you agree with them wholeheartedly.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I really tried to respond to that post, BK, but since about two thirds of it consists of stupid cheap shots, I really don't want to bother spending half of a post repeatedly denying I'm a sexist/racist/something-ist. Maybe you could get away with half of those cheap remarks toward Krazen or JCL or someone making that post, but I know you know better than to try implying I don't completely support equality wherever possible by completely misinterpreting my post.

I'll post here when I have something to respond to that isn't "lol you stupid neckbeards, brb spending all day in irc" or "OHOHOHO NOW REPLACE THIS WORD WITH BLACK."

[Marokai Backbeat]

I like vaginas.

You monster.

Sex is nice.

You know, I can think of a lot of positive adjectives that could be appended to sex, but somehow 'nice' just doesn't really seem to apply.

Fair enough. This is, of course, your personal opinion and you are free to have it and live your life by it without the interference of others.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Feminism means nothing and everything. It means whatever a feminist wants it to mean.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Feminism means nothing and everything. It means whatever a feminist wants it to mean.

It certainly doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Well it's true, though, isn't it? Maybe you're entirely right and I'm being a bit unfair in my criticism of the movement, such as it is, but there's either never a dead-on definition of "feminist" whenever someone criticizes it, or the definition is so broad that it applies to everyone but the deranged.

Now, the point is that, in 95% of cases, patriarchy works to the benefits of men and to the disadvantages of women. Would you deny this? IMO, this provides a fairly logical reason why the movement would call itself feminist.

I just think "patriarchy" is a pretty serious accusation to be throwing around and hardly applies to 2013 America or even really most of the Western world (whatever that term means, these days, either). Perhaps parts of Asia and the the majority of the Middle East are legitimate patriarchies, but I'm not sure what the modern incarnation of American feminism is very well equipped to do about it.

That's really what my problem with the term comes down to; I don't really think that "movement" is very well equipped to deal with the problems they target. I don't see much constructive suggestions coming from that camp, these days. It's also difficult for me to support feminism, as someone who believes in gender neutrality, when the very term perpetuates the differences between the genders. There's also an unfortunate amount of sex-negative feminism going around (which seems to amount to "looking at women sexually = rapist waiting to happen"), which just strikes me as some form of puritanism.