SPC vs. Atlasia (user search)
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Author Topic: SPC vs. Atlasia  (Read 3055 times)
Marokai Backbeat
Marokai Blue
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Posts: 17,477
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« on: March 06, 2010, 02:19:53 AM »

Would you care to, I don't know, elaborate? You can't just claim something is unconstitutional, you know.

Once you do that, I'll be happy to let the others know.
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Marokai Backbeat
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Posts: 17,477
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2010, 02:50:38 AM »

De-lightful. I'll let the others know now.
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Marokai Backbeat
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Posts: 17,477
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2010, 11:16:17 PM »

In fact, the effect of the whole legislation is to push individuals to create private clubs where people smoke.  Tongue

Pretty much.
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Marokai Backbeat
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Posts: 17,477
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 07:42:57 PM »

Just a friendly reminder for Atlasia.
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Marokai Backbeat
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 08:39:32 PM »

Argument for the Defense:

The Constitution of Atlasia states:
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Smoking is a danger to the public health. The damage inflicted to a non-smoker who is in the vicinity of a smoker is greater than the actual damage afflicted to the smoker, and it stands to reason that this would be a danger to the Public Health.

Furthermore, this bill only outlaws smoking in public areas and not areas that are privately owned. These areas include parks, libraries, schools, etc. The Government has responsibility over these locations, and it has a responsibility to preserve the public health.

Please excuse me for asking, but if you read the clause, it only gives the Senate the power to protect the public health by conducting researches, investigations, experiments, and demonstrations and by providing for the quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of individuals, animals, and plants. Where is banning smoking on that list?

"Demonstrations" can mean a number of things, in my view, can it not? One of the definitions for "demonstration" can be, essentially a "show of force" which clearly is what a ban (with the intent to protect the public health) does, no?
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Marokai Backbeat
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Posts: 17,477
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 05:14:04 PM »

I suspect something will be posted very soon. Just letting everyone know we haven't forgotten.
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Marokai Backbeat
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Posts: 17,477
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Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 03:04:16 PM »

(Associate Justice Marokai Blue delivered the majority opinion which Justice Opebo joined.)

Opinion

At issue here in this case is the constitutional basis, or lack thereof, of the Protection of Public Health Act.

More specifically, two points about the aforementioned act. First, being the Senate's ability to ban smoking, and secondly, the Senate's ability to apply a different standard to some businesses with regard to smoking than others.

SPC argues that the Senate lacks the expressed authority to prohibit smoking, claiming that under Article 1, Section 5, Clause 13 & Clause 14, as well as the 22nd Amendment, the Senate nowhere has the authority to restrict smoking.

However, as will be explained, the Court disagrees, for a variety of reasons.

Un: "Demonstrations."

SPC opens his argument by stating that within Article 1, Section 5, Clause 13 & Clause 14, as well as the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution, "there cannot be found any constitutional justification for prohibiting smoking for public health reasons."

He further specifies by stating "Clearly there is nothing in the Protection of Public Health act pertaining to research" and "The Protection of Public Health Act does not specify anything regarding quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of smokers or tobacco."

What SPC does not seem to recognize here, is the word "demonstrations" included in Article 1, Section 5, Clause 13:

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What is the meaning of "demonstrations" in this context? It clearly does not mean scientific experiments, as "experiments" is already included in the aforementioned clause. It clearly doesn't refer to the showing of research, as "research" is already included in the aforementioned clause. It clearly can't mean the disclosure of investigations, as "investigations" is already included in the aforementioned clause.

The word "demonstration" can mean many things, but chief among such definitions includes a showing of force or the undertaking of an action generally. While "force" isn't to suggest military action or anything of the sort, we believe this definition is consistent with what a smoking ban is itself.

"Demonstrations" can thus only mean, in this context, the taking of action that "promotes the public health." This is not to say that the Senate can do anything it likes in the name of "promoting health" however, as such actions must pass mustard with the scientific community and therefore must have a legitimate purpose.

We believe, however, that smoking and second-hand smoke qualify as legitimate concerns for the Senate to engage in demonstrations, authority we believe is granted by Article 1, Section 5, Clause 13, to prohibit, and this includes the Protection of Public Health Act.

Deux: "Protection of those in employment."

SPC goes on to state: "The Protection of Public Health Act says nothing about protecting those in employment or natural resources, as it bans smoking in any establishment open to the public. Thus, there cannot be found any constitutional justification for prohibiting smoking for public health reasons."

We, however, don't see how any other interpretation of the 22nd Amendment can be made. The 22nd Amendment states, in part:

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Would that not include people in these establishments, the restaurants, the cinemas, the libraries? Would the prohibiting of smoking, a potentially dangerous activity not only to one's self but others around that person, protect the health of "those in employment"? We can't imagine any other interpretation other than that. Prohibiting smoking in places such as restaurants or cinemas quite clearly protects those in employment and thus, under the 22nd Amendment, we view the prohibiting of smoking to be a "necessary regulation."

Trois: The specificity of "open to the public."

SPC also states that individuals have a "right" to smoke in public areas, saying "the right of the people to smoke in public areas cannot be denied."

It deserves stating for the record, as alluded to in a section above, that the smoking ban affects only establishments open to the public, and not private establishments not open to the public, or private property such as individual homes. In fact, the Act specifically uses the word "public" four times.

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Atlasian law prohibits a number of harmful activities that one individual could inflict upon another. It is a simple scientific fact that smoking is harmful, not only to one's own body, but to everyone around that person, and can inflict serious harm on another individuals body in as short a time as just thirty minutes. We note this because we strongly hold that the Atlasian Constitution does not grant the right to harm others.

We do not view the prohibition of smoking as it affects other individuals any different than the government's existing power to prohibit theft or physical abuse, etc, and so we hold that there is no "right" to smoke in public.

Quatre: Consent and non-consent.

SPC states on the issue of Clause 4 of the Protection of Public Health Act, that "...how can there be equal protection under the law when the law may be unequally applied depending on the revenue of the establishment in which you are smoking? For that matter, how can there be equal protection under the law when the law may be unequally applied depending on whether the building you are in is open to the public?

We can only assume the reason this being written into the bill in the first place was to exempt (or indirectly, create) establishments that were built or run specifically for these types of activities, smoking included. Thus we believe, given the passage of this act, that a different kind of establishment has been created, necessitating different standards to accommodate individual consent.

If someone goes to an establishment where such a heavy amount of the revenue is built on smoking, they clearly have the intent to go there, and they clearly consent to the harm that it does their body, as opposed to something like going to a cinema, where one person working there or their family attending are not consenting, implicitly, to getting their lungs filled with smoke.

There is a line, the court believes, where some people are consenting (implicitly or directly) to this, second hand smoke that is, and where some people are definitely not intending on breathing harmful substances like cigarette smoke. That line of consent is important, and is why we believe the Senate has the authority to treat these two types of establishments differently, as they are now, inherently, different, deserving of different standards.

Cinq: Conclusion Summary

Section Un: The Court dismisses the claim made by SPC that the Senate lacks the authority under Article 1, Section 5, Clause 13 of the Constitution to prohibit smoking, believing instead that the word "demonstrations" in Clause 13 includes a smoking ban.

Section Deux: The Court disagrees with the claim made by SPC that the Senate lacks the authority under the 22nd Amendment to the Constitution to ban smoking "to protect those in employment."

Section Trois: The Court disagrees with the claim again made by SPC that individuals have a "right" to smoke in public, believing that preventing the harmful effects of second-hand smoke is no different than the government preventing physical abuse.

Section Quatre: The Court disagrees with the claim from SPC that the Senate is violating Article 1, Section 5, Clause 4 by treating establishments with different regulations and standards, believing that, with the passage of the Protection of Public Health Act, there have been two inherently different business establishments erected regarding smoking, thus necessitating different standards. The Court also emphasizes the difference between consent to and the lack of consent to breathing in second-hand smoke.

Therefore, for the reasons outlined, the Court has ruled that the Protection of Public Health Act shall stand as constitutional.
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Marokai Backbeat
Marokai Blue
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*****
Posts: 17,477
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2010, 01:36:18 AM »
« Edited: March 21, 2010, 01:44:50 AM by A.J. Marokai Blue »

I think we could play the "conflict of interest" game for just about every person who is a justice and every person who could become a Justice, especially considering how long others have been around. I'm from the Pacific, was I biased in the Ebowed case by accepting his case? I personally oppose Giovanni. Was I biased in my judging over the Giovanni case in December? Not to mention that all three of us have made political comments related to Atlasian matters up down and sideways.

Also, the court reserves our ability to analyze bills and constitutional conflicts however we see fit, within reason. There's little reason to limit ourselves to only what certain people say, especially when that could lead to some rather unfortunate circumstances where someone not knowing the constitution very well argues something when we, as Justices, know there is objectively better rationale to be found elsewhere. We play fair, SPC.

You also neglected to answer my question when I posed it to you. I spent a great deal of time coming up with my reasoning and spent alot of time trying to determine what "demonstrations" could reasonably mean. If you don't like it, SPC, I'm sorry, but it is what it is. Trying to accuse the court of some weird political or personal bias is not only completely unwarranted and sort of insulting, but an accusation which could probably be leveled against 85% of prospective Justices considering Atlasia's environment.

Edit: I'd also like to mention the obvious fact that all three of us agreed it was constitutional. Spade and I & Opebo simply disagreed on the reasoning for how to declare it constitutional. So it's kind of silly to try some game attacking me.
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Marokai Backbeat
Marokai Blue
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*****
Posts: 17,477
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.42, S: -7.39

« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 01:49:35 AM »

It's horrible what's happened to me, Purple State. Tongue
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