Indictment-O-Rama Megathread: Mueller indicts 13 Russians

[Person Man]

Where's the elmo?

[Person Man]

Seeing a lot of speculation on twitter that it might be flynn, and it has to do with some turkish cleric.

Former CIA dude James Woolsey went to Mueller last week to discuss flynn.

That's my second guess. Manafort or Flynn getting the Turkey stuff thrown at him.

Trump'll be fine.

I hope they get Kushner though lol (0.01% chance).

Everytime I hear "Trump will be fine." from you, I imagine a very nervous and sweaty person, shakingly trying to be optimistic.

When did that happen? After the third of fifth time? I can see him in the fetal position saying "Trump will be fine Trump will be fine". He's clearly triggered.

[Person Man]

Are you a joke poster?

Leftists have gone unhinged since Trump won.

If Clinton would have won, they would have continually mocked Trump supporters.

Maybe until the Onion told us to stop in December...2016.

[Person Man]

Well, some people will be getting a surprise Halloween visitor...

There will be neither tricks nor treats this year!

[Person Man]

[Person Man]

Someone sang like a canary today. But for what?

[Person Man]

Someone make a meme about-

"Obsesses over locking people up. Gets locked up." 
That's basically fascism's history in a nutshell.

[Person Man]

And oh yeah. If Trump is proven that he became the President through criminal acts (or acts of war), does that mean that all the orders he has given are illegal?

[Person Man]

This is the end of the Trump family and quite possibly the GOP.

I dunno. The Democrats survived basically trying to end the country 150 years ago.

[Person Man]

This is the end of the Trump family and quite possibly the GOP.

I dunno. The Democrats survived basically trying to end the country 150 years ago.

Yeah. lol @ this being the end of the GOP. The voters will forget about Trump ten days after he leaves office. We had Democrats on Atlas literally yesterday praising Nikki Haley and Flake/Corker lol

Yeah. Starve the pigs for a few days and well... I have seen many pigs eat many men.

[Person Man]

Ok not the end of the GOP but definitely the end of the Trump family.

Haiku of the Hour:

Some things will conclude.
Others are just beginning.
To new beginnings!

[Person Man]

The charge is for lying to the FBI about a call during the transition.

What are they not charging him with to ensure his cooperation?

Probably a lot.  Failure to register as a foreign agent is an obvious one.

This basically pleading this whole thing from what Casey Anthony was charged with to what she was found guilty of. Doing such a thing without a trial would be legal malpractice unless this is really big.

[Person Man]

Literally LOL'd

Say it with me: Trump going to jail!

No. If this holds up he won't remain in office but he'll wiggle out of going to jail.

This is the end of the Trump family and quite possibly the GOP.

If all this goes down they'll lose both chambers in 2018 and the WH in 2020, but they'll be back. This is basically a Watergate level event and they rebounded from that really fast.

If nothing bad happens, yeah.

[Person Man]

Hopefully President Trump will disband the military and hand our nukes over to Russia before the neocons get back in. God knows they aren't finished with the Middle East yet.

What on earth is your boner for Russia about? You should move there if you think it’s so awesome

(Spoiler: it’s basically a cold Mexico)

Lol

[Person Man]

neocon President Pence soon, hell yeah!!!!

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/flynns-plea-raises-new-questions-about-whether-trump-obstructed-justice/547328/

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President Ryan then?

[Person Man]

neocon President Pence soon, hell yeah!!!!

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/flynns-plea-raises-new-questions-about-whether-trump-obstructed-justice/547328/

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President Ryan then?

I don't like Ryan's politics (or really Republicans of any stripe at all), but legally ejecting everyone associated with Trump and his campaign from the government and replacing him with Ryan would be a huge step in the right direction for this country.

Disagreements over policy I can do. Treason? Nah.

Also Ryan wouldn’t hire slapasses like Flynn or Tillerson, so I guess there’s that

[Person Man]

Jesus Christ, this thing is like Watergate, only everyone involved is incredible stupid.

Lolgate

it's Watergate but with more dank memes

...............uh.....can...well..uh... why not both?

[Person Man]

Yeah that NYT email looks really f**king bad...

I’d suggest caution. “USA election” is weird verbiage for an American to use

Especially adding the periods between the letters.

A lot of the Podesta looked weird, too.

[Person Man]

Now the NRA is involved https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/03/us/politics/trump-putin-russia-nra-campaign.html?_r=0&referer=https://t.co/aZHSPQ5DaH?amp=1

This will either turn out to be a conspiracy theory that only liberals believe or bona fide evidence that Russia pretty much funds all of the alt-Right players in this country from personhood tweakers to open-carry nuts.

[Person Man]

The trump squad is so bad at getting away with crimes they’d probably try to sneak weed on a plane by hiding it in a plastic water bottle

They'd probably just flaunt it because they know a pardon would come their way

They still wouldn't lose any votes!

[Person Man]

No, I’m not.  Trump may very well get indicted for obstruction of justice by Mueller, indeed it’s more likely than not at this point, and Mueller will almost certainly recommend impeachment at the very least.  And Trump obviously colluded with Russia.  However, facts are facts.  Collusion is a political term, you’ll never see anyone indicted for “collusion” b/c it’s not a crime.  As for conspiracy, that word doesn’t quite mean the same thing legally as it does in common usage.  It certainly shouldn’t be used interchangeably with collusion although if new information/testimony comes out, they may end up overlapping in this case.

Collusion is not a criminal charge, but you effectively cannot collude without accepting in kind gifts, which is illegal for a campaign to accept from a foreign power.

And I'm sure Don Jr. could mount a fairly strong ignorance of fact defense if you tried to charge him with violating the election laws you're talking about.  As for Trump, from what we've seen so far (and obviously Mueller knows a lot more than we do), I don't see enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Trump knew anyone campaign was engaging in the activities you're talking about.  Obstruction of Justice is the much stronger case, imo.  Btw, just to be clear, I'm just approaching this from a strictly legal PoV.

Well then what you're arguing is that he didn't collude, not that if he did collude he can't be charged for it.

No, I'm not, but whatever.

I thought lacking scientist was really on a defense if you didn't have a reason to know. I think DT2 should have known if even he didn't know he was committing a crime. And even if there is no specific intent, he still ratified it and I don't think specific intent matters there.

[Person Man]

No, I’m not.  Trump may very well get indicted for obstruction of justice by Mueller, indeed it’s more likely than not at this point, and Mueller will almost certainly recommend impeachment at the very least.  And Trump obviously colluded with Russia.  However, facts are facts.  Collusion is a political term, you’ll never see anyone indicted for “collusion” b/c it’s not a crime.  As for conspiracy, that word doesn’t quite mean the same thing legally as it does in common usage.  It certainly shouldn’t be used interchangeably with collusion although if new information/testimony comes out, they may end up overlapping in this case.

Collusion is not a criminal charge, but you effectively cannot collude without accepting in kind gifts, which is illegal for a campaign to accept from a foreign power.

And I'm sure Don Jr. could mount a fairly strong ignorance of fact defense if you tried to charge him with violating the election laws you're talking about.  As for Trump, from what we've seen so far (and obviously Mueller knows a lot more than we do), I don't see enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Trump knew anyone campaign was engaging in the activities you're talking about.  Obstruction of Justice is the much stronger case, imo.  Btw, just to be clear, I'm just approaching this from a strictly legal PoV.

Well then what you're arguing is that he didn't collude, not that if he did collude he can't be charged for it.

No, I'm not, but whatever.

I thought lacking scientist was really on a defense if you didn't have a reason to know. I think DT2 should have known if even he didn't know he was committing a crime. And even if there is no specific intent, he still ratified it and I don't think specific intent matters there.

What?

Scienter* knowledge that one was doing something wrong not just that they were doing something

[Person Man]

“Collusion” is not a crime or even a legal term

You're running behind. Even the deplorables are accepting collusion (or conspiring, if your prefer) with Russia. The new GOP defensive line is explaining why obstruction isn't illegal when the President does it. (Not much of a stretch for a party of apologists for pedophilia.)

No, I’m not.  Trump may very well get indicted for obstruction of justice by Mueller, indeed it’s more likely than not at this point, and Mueller will almost certainly recommend impeachment at the very least.  And Trump obviously colluded with Russia.  However, facts are facts.  Collusion is a political term, you’ll never see anyone indicted for “collusion” b/c it’s not a crime.  As for conspiracy, that word doesn’t quite mean the same thing legally as it does in common usage.  It certainly shouldn’t be used interchangeably with collusion although if new information/testimony comes out, they may end up overlapping in this case.

Conspiracy: An agreement between two or more persons to engage jointly in an unlawful or criminal act, or an act that is innocent in itself but becomes unlawful when done by the combination of actors.

Which is why Mueller following Trump's financial trail (including his tax records) is going to prove so important in this investigation, and determines whether or not Trump conspired with the Kremlin to alter the course of the 2016 election.  Trump obviously has something to hide.  And I wonder if Steve Bannon knows this, otherwise why counsel him to fight the investigation, alongside attempting to destroy the credibility of the Special Counsel?

Correct

It would still need to be a conspiracy to something.

[Person Man]

Can we get back on topic?

[Person Man]

Rep. Jackie Speier (D-CA) says that the rumor on Capitol Hill is that Trump will fire Mueller by Christmas.

Trump looks guilty. Speaking for myself, I will take the firing of Mueller as undeniable proof that Trump is guilty of obstruction and worse.

I hope that if this happens and if he gets away with it, that people just start ignoring what the Government does.