Gubernatorial Amendment (Amendment at Vote)

[minionofmidas]

Gubernatorial Amendment

1. The Preamble to Article 1 of the Constitution is amended to replace "Senate" with "Legislature".

2. The Legislature shall be composed of the Senate and the Council of Governors.

3. Each region shall have one vote in the Council, which shall be cast by its head of state.

4. This body shall have the power to veto legislation passed by the Senate, by a majority vote.

5. By a two-thirds vote, the Senate may choose to override a veto of the Council and present legislation directly to the President.

6. In order to maintain activity within the Senate, the Governors shall have the power to appoint a Senator to keep them informed of all bills that pass the Senate.

7. Any other powers of this body may be granted by the Senate, upon request of that power by any Governor.


Sponsor: PiT

[minionofmidas]

I am not sure I understand the reasoning behind sections 6 and 7.

[minionofmidas]

My apologies. Both free slots happen to be "amendments excluded" slots. This bill is not yet on the Senate floor (though it should get there very soon).

[minionofmidas]

It's BACK!

I'll have major amendments tomorrow.

[minionofmidas]

Meh. This thing probably needs a more substantial rewrite than I initially thought. Tomorrow.

[minionofmidas]

Sections 6 and 7 need to be lost. I don't think they serve a useful purpose. It is an interesting bill, but voting attendance isn't the greatest. Maybe their should be a time limit for the governors to do a veto or they lose the right. There should be a requirement that a majority of the sitting governors is required to effect a veto. Having a vote of 1-0 just won't do.

Section 4 specifies a majority.

"a majority vote" is dreadfully unclear.

[minionofmidas]

Offered as friendly...

1. The Preamble to Article 1 of the Constitution is amended to read "All Legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in the Legislature of the Republic of Atlasia. The Legislature shall be composed of the Senate and the Council of Governors. "

2. Article I, Section 3, Clause 3 [current text - this is for information purposes and not part of the amendment - : For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.] is amended to read:  "For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the Council of Governors and then to the President of the Republic of Atlasia, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If both approve, the President shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. If the Council of Governors does not approve, they shall return the Bill with their objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless. " [note: As the Council of Governors are not required to sign the bill if they approve, the fact that a week of inaction by them is the same thing as consent goes without saying. I hope. If people find this too unclear please say so.]

3. The title of Section 5 is amended to read "Powers of the Legislature". The preamble of Section 5 is amended to read "The Legislature shall have the power save where limited by other provisions in the Constitution". The title of Section 6 is amended to read "Powers denied to the Legislature".

4. The Council of Governors shall consist of the heads of state of the regions. Each head of state shall have one vote. The votes of a majority of the current membership shall be required to not approve of any legislation. 


Incidentally, I just noticed that we Senators cannot be impeached under the Constitution of Atlasia - it's only for executive and judicial officers of the Republic of Atlasia, not legislative ones. Learn something new every day... of course, we can still be expelled from the Senate. This also means that section doesn't need a rewrite.

I struck sections 6 and 7.

This makes it so that, basically, if three Governors state their disapproval within a week of a bill passing (the same as the President's action timeframe), it's considered vetoed same as if it was vetoed by the President. They don't get a line item veto, though.

And I will later try to amend this further to turn it into the AtlaMinh/Referendum Movement idea of having all bills passed by the people, except I'll keep the regional aspect.

[minionofmidas]

     I accept, I guess.

Senators have 24 hours to object.

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.

Are their five regions?

Yeah - the reason the amendment doesn't just state the number is because the Constitution knows a mechanism to change the number of regions.

[minionofmidas]

The Amendment has been accepted.

I'll have more amendments later tomorrow. Which won't be intended as friendly but will try to square this bill with the AtlaMinh agenda.

[minionofmidas]

The governors have to do something. But, on the other hand, do we really want a legislator who can't be defeated in an election (Verin)

Ha can be. And almost was the last time around - he won 3-2. He would have lost if you had voted against him.

[minionofmidas]

Question: Were this amendment to pass, it would pretty much do away with all the arguments ever forwarded in favor of regional senate seats, right?

Well, that calls for coupling it with this ole beaut:

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(not an amendment yet)

[minionofmidas]

Amendment

That section 4 be amended with the inclusion of "two-thirds" such that it reads:
The Council of Governors shall consist of the heads of state of the regions. Each head of state shall have one vote. The votes of a two-thirds majority of the current membership shall be required to not approve of any legislation. 

I don't like it.

[minionofmidas]

Amendment

That section 4 be amended with the inclusion of "two-thirds" such that it reads:
The Council of Governors shall consist of the heads of state of the regions. Each head of state shall have one vote. The votes of a two-thirds majority of the current membership shall be required to not approve of any legislation. 

I don't like it.

I'm fairly lukewarm towards the whole idea of the Council of Governors, but I can't support it if just 3 Governors can constitute a potential blocking majority on anything that moves.

But but but... Veto overrides are FUN!

Besides, I'm viewing the Governors as a stepping stone towards popular approval, really.

[minionofmidas]

I'm not sure -

Exclusive of any law or regulation governing the rules for the proceedings of the Senate, over which the Senate shall have exclusive jurisdiction, for any Bill or Resolution to become law, it shall first be passed by the Senate in accordance with existing law

This is the Constitution we're amending here - this is, in fact the base text you're referring to with the phrase "existing law". Besides, I'm not even sure if this were to mean before Presidential signature or after. (The later part of your amendment implies before, but it's not clear from the language used here.) Besides, my version has the Governors acting at the same time as the President, thus not slowing up the process (in theory. In practice, of course, it would still do so as Presidents frequently sign quite early within their week. Then again, Governors might also declare their approval quite quickly if notified.) I'm also not happy with the PPT being *required* to notify Governors enshrined in the Constitutional text. I've been notifying presidents by pm since I took office, but I'm pretty sure that hasn't always been the case - the phrase with which I closed votes in the thread ("it is presented to the President for his signature or veto") has always been considered sufficient.
Plus, the language I'm using is trying to stick to traditional Atlasian constitutional language.

[minionofmidas]

Amendment

That section 4 be amended with the inclusion of "two-thirds" such that it reads:
The Council of Governors shall consist of the heads of state of the regions. Each head of state shall have one vote. The votes of a two-thirds majority of the current membership shall be required to not approve of any legislation. 

The vote is on the amendment. Please vote aye, nay or abstain.

[minionofmidas]

I'm not sure -

Exclusive of any law or regulation governing the rules for the proceedings of the Senate, over which the Senate shall have exclusive jurisdiction, for any Bill or Resolution to become law, it shall first be passed by the Senate in accordance with existing law

This is the Constitution we're amending here - this is, in fact the base text you're referring to with the phrase "existing law". Besides, I'm not even sure if this were to mean before Presidential signature or after. (The later part of your amendment implies before, but it's not clear from the language used here.) Besides, my version has the Governors acting at the same time as the President, thus not slowing up the process (in theory. In practice, of course, it would still do so as Presidents frequently sign quite early within their week. Then again, Governors might also declare their approval quite quickly if notified.) I'm also not happy with the PPT being *required* to notify Governors enshrined in the Constitutional text. I've been notifying presidents by pm since I took office, but I'm pretty sure that hasn't always been the case - the phrase with which I closed votes in the thread ("it is presented to the President for his signature or veto") has always been considered sufficient.
Plus, the language I'm using is trying to stick to traditional Atlasian constitutional language.

As soon as the senate passes something, it goes to the council of governors. If they don't veto it, the president can sign the bill or not. I don't see what in my language slows down what the president is doing.

He has to wait for the council of governors in your version. In my version, he can sign while the Governors are still voting - if they end up vetoing it, his signature is simply irrelevant.


On the amendment: Nay.

Vote count:

Aye 3 (PiT, Jas, Happy)
Nay 2 (Torie, Lewis)
abstain (voted) 1 (Dwtl)
yet to vote 3 (Al, Andrew, Sensei)
absent 1 (Bacon)

[minionofmidas]

Vote count:

Aye 3 (PiT, Jas, Happy)
Nay 4 (Torie, Lewis, Al, Bacon)
abstain (voted) 1 (Dwtl)
yet to vote 2 (Andrew, Sensei)

[minionofmidas]

This amendment has failed.

The vote is on the amendment. Please vote aye, nay or abstain:

I propose amending Lewis' language as follows:

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Nay.

[minionofmidas]

Vote count:

Aye 0
Nay 3 (Lewis, PiT, Sensei)
yet to vote 7 (everybody)

[minionofmidas]

The amendment has failed.

Vote count
Aye 0
Nay 7 (everybody)
did not vote 3 (Torie, Al, Jas)

[minionofmidas]

Wow, my text doesn't *quite* say what I remember it as saying.

[minionofmidas]

Placeholder. I want to say something, tomorrow.

[minionofmidas]

Amendment (offered as friendly)

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This is basically what I meant to do the first time. I've no idea where that "then" came from. I know where the error came from regarding the lower corrections - I was somehow under the impression that the timeframe for consenting to be a week was enshrined elsewhere in the text.

[minionofmidas]

     Shouldn't it say "or the Council of Governors?"

Eh - no. If the President vetoes it and the Council of Governors is inactive, it shouldn't become law regardless.
Still, the current phrasing leaves some to be desired as well when I think about it now.

[minionofmidas]

     Shouldn't it say "or the Council of Governors?"

Eh - no. If the President vetoes it and the Council of Governors is inactive, it shouldn't become law regardless.
Still, the current phrasing leaves some to be desired as well when I think about it now.

     That's what I'm saying; if you make it "or," then if either the President or the Council vetoes it then it will be returned to the Senate. With "and," the President & the Council both need to veto it (if I understand it correctly).

If you make it "or" then if either of them does nothing, even if the other vetoes it, the bill passes.

If you make it "and" then it's not clear what happens if only one of them does nothing.

"For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the Council of Governors and then to the President of the Republic of Atlasia, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If both approve, the President shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. If the Council of Governors does not approve, they shall return the Bill with their objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President or the Council of Governors within seven days after it shall have been presented to him them, they shall be considered to have approved of the legislation. "

This work? Offered as friendly, earlier amendment withdrawn.