Juvenile Criminal Responsibility and Treatment Bill (Law'd)

[minionofmidas]

Age of Criminal Responsibility Bill

For in all matters where criminal offences are matters under the jurisdiction of the federal government of Atlasia:

1. No person under the age of 8 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.

2a. Persons aged between 8 and 14 years old shall be presumed to be incapable of committing an offence under the law.

2b. This presumption may be rebutted where it is proven, on the balance of probabilities, that having had due regard to the child’s age and level of maturity, the court determines that the person did have a full understanding of what was involved in the commission of the offence.


Sponsor: Jas.


Editted the friendly amendment into this post in order not to lose track of it.

[minionofmidas]

I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Alright, the errant will not be removed by friendly amendment.

Senators have 24 hours not to object.

[minionofmidas]

I motion for the errant not to be removed by friendly amendment.

Alright, the errant will not be removed by friendly amendment.

Senators have 24 hours not to object.

I think you mean to say that the errant "not" will be removed by friendly amendment.

I was just kidding. The lack of the "s makes Jas' point incredibly easy to misread. Note the "not to object".

[minionofmidas]

The vote is on the amendment:

to change the text of section 1

1. No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.
 
and 2a

2a. Persons aged between 10 and 14 years old shall be presumed to be incapable of committing an offence under the law.

Aye.

[minionofmidas]

Current vote count:

Aye 5 (Lewis, Kings, Dwtl, Torie)
Nay 1 (Jas)
yet to vote 4 (Sensei, Al, Meeker, Verily)

[minionofmidas]

This amendment passes.

Vote count:

Aye 6 (Lewis, Kings, Dwtl, Torie, Sensei)
Nay 2 (Jas, Al)
yet to vote 2 (Meeker, Verily)

[minionofmidas]

Aye, although the bill itself is still fundamentally flawed. I will try to offer something better this weekend as an amendment.

Please do.

[minionofmidas]

Grrr. Debate in this Senate has died down completely it seems.

We're a little over 24 hours, but I will ignore this given Torie's statements. Somebody should help me keep debate open, though.

[minionofmidas]

A propos of nothing, my current username is related to the Senate.

It's a reference to the Billy Bragg song, Ideology:

When one voice rules the nation
Just because they're on top of the pile
Doesn't mean their vision is the clearest
The voices of the people
Are falling on deaf ears
Our politicians all become careerists
They must declare their interests
But not their company cars
Is there more to a seat in parliament
Then sitting on your arse
And the best of all this bad bunch
Are shouting to be heard
Above the sound of ideologies clashing

Outside the patient millions
Who put them into power
Expect a little more back for their taxes
Like school books, beds in hospitals
And peace in our bloody time
All they get is old men grinding axes
Who've built their private fortunes
On the things they can rely
The courts, the secret handshake
The stock exchange and the old school tie
For God and queen and country
All things they justify
Above the sound of ideologies clashing

God bless the civil service
The nation's saving grace
While we expect democracy
They're laughing in our face
And although our cries get louder
Their laughter gets louder still
Above the sound of ideologies clashing

[minionofmidas]

Here is my amendment, aka rewrite, of the Bill:

Juvenile Criminal Responsibility and Treatment Act

For in all matters where criminal offenses are matters under the jurisdiction of the federal government of Atlasia:

1. Persons under the age of 8 shall be subject to a separate system of justice known as the Juvenile Justice System. Persons subject to the Juvenile Justice System are referred to herein as “Juveniles.”

2. Persons between the ages of 8 and 14 shall also be subject to the Juvenile Justice System except where it is found by the court by clear and convincing evidence that, having taken into account the child’s age and level of maturity, the person in question did in fact have a substantial understanding of the gravity of the wrong associated with the commission of the offense.

3. The Juvenile Justice System shall involve a judge or a specially appointed master of the judge rather than a jury making a determination as to whether or not the Juvenile in question by clear and convincing evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt, and  with due regard for protecting the rights of the Juvenile to have a fair hearing and with representation of counsel, committed the offense of which the Juvenile is charged, and then with respect to  Juveniles found to have committed such offense, prescribing a program focused on  treatment and rehabilitation rather than punishment (“Prescribed Program of Treatment”) which however may involve some form of detention and restrictions on the  rights of movement and conduct of such Juvenile. The emphasis of the Prescribed Program of Treatment shall be on the protection of the Juvenile from influences detrimental to the Juvenile’s welfare, and causing the Juvenile to form the habits and conscience necessary to become a law abiding individual.

4. When the Juvenile reaches the age of majority, or when the term of the Juveniles Prescribed Program of Treatment expires, whichever is later, the Juvenile’s court record for all acts subject to the Juvenile Justice System shall be expunged.

Yeah, well, no.
It's a good idea actually, but not for children that small. I must insist that

No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.

[minionofmidas]

10 is fine with me Lewis. I accept it as a friendly amendment to my amendment, and have made the change.

Senators have 24 hours to object.

[minionofmidas]

10 is fine with me Lewis. I accept it as a friendly amendment to my amendment, and have made the change.

Senators have 24 hours to object.

Silly me. As this wasn't part of the law yet, it's not a friendly amendment in the sense of the law, and Senators who object will just have to reintroduce the former version.

[minionofmidas]

Exactly. A friendly amendment is an amendment to the bill before the senate, while this was just a change to a pending amendment to said bill, before the amendment came to a vote. Which it is now.

The vote is on the amendment:

Here is my amendment, aka rewrite, of the Bill:

Juvenile Criminal Responsibility and Treatment Act

For in all matters where criminal offenses are matters under the jurisdiction of the federal government of Atlasia:

1. Persons under the age of 10 shall be subject to a separate system of justice known as the Juvenile Justice System. Persons subject to the Juvenile Justice System are referred to herein as “Juveniles.”

2. Persons between the ages of 10 and 14 shall also be subject to the Juvenile Justice System except where it is found by the court by clear and convincing evidence that, having taken into account the child’s age and level of maturity, the person in question did in fact have a substantial understanding of the gravity of the wrong associated with the commission of the offense.

3. The Juvenile Justice System shall involve a judge or a specially appointed master of the judge rather than a jury making a determination as to whether or not the Juvenile in question by clear and convincing evidence rather than beyond a reasonable doubt, and  with due regard for protecting the rights of the Juvenile to have a fair hearing and with representation of counsel, committed the offense of which the Juvenile is charged, and then with respect to  Juveniles found to have committed such offense, prescribing a program focused on  treatment and rehabilitation rather than punishment (“Prescribed Program of Treatment”) which however may involve some form of detention and restrictions on the  rights of movement and conduct of such Juvenile. The emphasis of the Prescribed Program of Treatment shall be on the protection of the Juvenile from influences detrimental to the Juvenile’s welfare, and causing the Juvenile to form the habits and conscience necessary to become a law abiding individual.

4. When the Juvenile reaches the age of majority, or when the term of the Juveniles Prescribed Program of Treatment expires, whichever is later, the Juvenile’s court record for all acts subject to the Juvenile Justice System shall be expunged.

Please vote aye, nay or abstain.

[minionofmidas]

Nay.


If this amendment passes, I will introduce an amendment to replace section one with

No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.

and to strike the "also" at the beginning of section 2. If it does not, I will introduce an amendment exactly like the one we're currently voting on, except with the changes as outlined.


Current vote count:

Aye 3 (torie, Dwtl, Sensei)
Nay 1 (Lewis)
abstain (yet to vote) 6 (Jas, Al, the Kings, Meeker, Verily)

[minionofmidas]

How do you plan to process under 10's who commit some serious offense Lewis?  Just send them home? I don't understand why the Juvenile Justice System cannot handle them reasonably. The system has a lot of flexibility to take maturity into account.

What kind of serious offense are we talking here?
There are regional child protection services.

[minionofmidas]

Or poking someone's eye out maliciously. Or arson.

Because a child is likely to understand such an action.

You should understand that I find *ten* hard to stomach here. Or anything below the age of consent, actually.

[minionofmidas]

Current vote count:

Aye 4 (torie, Dwtl, Sensei, Culture)
Nay 2 (Lewis, Al)
abstain (voted) 1 (Jas)
abstain (yet to vote) 3 (Bacon, Meeker, Verily)

How about homicide?

How likely, exactly, is it that a case with an under 10 (heck, under 15) year old that technically meets a law's definition of "homicide" actually is what you'd call a murder case.
I've just heard too many horror stories about the outcomes of this silly "adult time adult crime idea" (not that your amendment is thatof course) to have any sympathy for the moronic assumptions behind it.
I do know though that Germany's strict cutoff at 14 for any sort of criminal responsibility is problematic. There are 13-year olds with police records as long as your arm. There are 12-year olds on heroin (I've known one. Well, not when she was 12. Nor in fact when she was on heroin.) They're just exceedingly rare. But 9 year olds? Don't be ridiculous.

[minionofmidas]

Oh yah, vote times out in 25 hours.

[minionofmidas]

Oh. I always took it for as pretty direct translation of German "Tötungsdelikt" - ie all crimes involving the death of a person. Well never mind that.

[minionofmidas]

The amendment passes.

Final vote count:

Aye 4 (torie, Dwtl, Sensei, Culture)
Nay 2 (Lewis, Al)
abstain (voted) 1 (Jas)
abstain (did not vote) 3 (Bacon, Meeker, Verily)

an amendment to replace section one with

No person under the age of 10 shall be held criminally liable for the commission of any offense under the law.

and to strike the "also" at the beginning of section 2.

The vote is on the amendment. Please vote aye, nay or abstain.


Aye.

[minionofmidas]

This vote timed out on the 6th.

Sorry CultureKing - you changed your vote too late, meaning that we have a hilarious final vote count of:

Aye 2 (Lewis, Sensei)
Nay 1 (Torie)
Abstain (voted) 3 (Jas, Bacon, Culture)
Abstain (did not vote) 4 (Al, Meeker, Verily, Dwtl)

and that the amendment has passed.

Obviously Torie's perfectly free to introduce an amendment to undo this amendment, though.

[minionofmidas]

I'm not in charge right now. Just have patience til monday.

[minionofmidas]

Quite right. I move to amend the currently extant as amended section 1 to read as follows:

1. Persons under the age of 10 shall be subject to a separate system of justice known as the Juvenile Justice System. Persons subject to the Juvenile Justice System are referred to herein as “Juveniles.”

The vote is on the Amendment. Please vote aye, nay or abstain.


Nay.

[minionofmidas]

Current vote count

Aye 3 (PiT, Sensei, Torie)
Nay 2 (Lewis, Andrew)
abstain 2 (Jas, Happy)
yet to vote 2 (Al, Dwtl)
vacant 1

[minionofmidas]

The Amendment has passed.

Aye 3 (PiT, Sensei, Torie)
Nay 2 (Lewis, Andrew)
abstain (voted) 2 (Jas, Happy)
abstain (did not vote) 2 (Al, Dwtl)
vacant 1