Return to September 10th Bill [Final passage at vote]

[minionofmidas]

I propose the following amendment.

Section 5: Guantanamo Bay
1. The prison camp located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is to be closed within six months after this act becomes law.

2.
a. All those presently detained without due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be released to their country of origin.
b. All those detained with due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be put on trial.
c. All those who have been formally found guilty of charges brought before the court shall be transferred to a maximum security prison in Atlasia as per instructions of the judge.
d. All those found not guilty shall be released to their country of origin.

That doesn't solve anything.

-There is nobody charged as of right now irl, and only one convicted - and he's not at Gitmo anymore. (He made a bargain according to which both he and his home country - Australia - accepted the validity of the current legal setup - he was officially sentenced, and he could go home. He spent a couple of months in an Australian prison, and was released this december.)
Two more people were charged under the current setup, but these charges were dismissed. They nonetheless remain at Gitmo.

-I am not prepared to accept Bush's kangaroo court's verdicts - now Congress' kangaroo court, sorry bout that - as valid sentences by a legitimate court of law, due largely to judicial independence issues.
The US Supreme Court will rule on the issue again in Summer.

-Because the framework that set them up was set up well after Atlasia was founded, it can be safely considered not to exist in Atlasia (even if Atlasia does have a base at Gitmo, something I'm not too sure about.) Therefore, in Atlasia at any rate, Sections 2b and 2c are meaningless.

-Some of the people at Gitmo are (still) there only because releasing them to their country of origin would mean their certain death. A number of Chinese citizens, for instance. We'd need an asylum provision for these people. Even though they are, of course, Islamists, and potentially violent ones at that.
Approximately 70 of the approximately 355 at Gitmo are there either because of that or because their home country refuses to take them back. Approximately 420 additional people have passed through Gitmo's gates during the term of its existence.

[minionofmidas]

The USA PATRIOT Act expired a while back and in Atlasia was never renewed.

Brandon is right.

I propose an amendment to strike that section.

[minionofmidas]

What has Guantanamo Bay got to do with Atlasia?

^^^

This. 


(sorry for butting in, I got lost on my way to chambers...but i dont know if anyone has the america/atlasia question quite sorted out yet)

No we haven't.

[minionofmidas]

I think it's pretty well-established that we inherited everything that was true of the US before 2004, which would include Guantanamo.

Yes... but if (as some deluded fools still maintain) a) we replaced the US rather than duplicate it in miniature and b) all the moderation "events", even those of Ford's term, really happened and what wasn't mentioned here didn't happen ... then I wonder who currently lives in Gitmo. Everybody who was there the day Atlasia started? Which is which day exactly, btw?

There is no restoration of logic without recognition of the US.
This doesn't preclude the fact that we don't also have our own Gitmo.

[minionofmidas]

Alright, there's been possibly 4 amendments proposed here. If you've proposed an amendment and still want a vote on it, please repost it so we can be clear.

I'm aware of three:

I motion to strike Section 5.

I propose the following amendment.

Section 5: Guantanamo Bay
1. The prison camp located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is to be closed within six months after this act becomes law.

2.
a. All those presently detained without due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be released to their country of origin.
b. All those detained with due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be put on trial.
c. All those who have been formally found guilty of charges brought before the court shall be transferred to a maximum security prison in Atlasia as per instructions of the judge.
d. All those found not guilty shall be released to their country of origin.

The USA PATRIOT Act expired a while back and in Atlasia was never renewed.

Brandon is right.

I propose an amendment to strike that section.

[minionofmidas]

Alright, there's been possibly 4 amendments proposed here. If you've proposed an amendment and still want a vote on it, please repost it so we can be clear.

I'm aware of three:

I motion to strike Section 5.

I propose the following amendment.

Section 5: Guantanamo Bay
1. The prison camp located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is to be closed within six months after this act becomes law.

2.
a. All those presently detained without due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be released to their country of origin.
b. All those detained with due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be put on trial.
c. All those who have been formally found guilty of charges brought before the court shall be transferred to a maximum security prison in Atlasia as per instructions of the judge.
d. All those found not guilty shall be released to their country of origin.

The USA PATRIOT Act expired a while back and in Atlasia was never renewed.

Brandon is right.

I propose an amendment to strike that section.

Sam psuedo-proposed to reinstitute the USAPATRIOT Act.

All he said is "I guess I'm going to have to do that", he hasn't actually done so so far.

[minionofmidas]

Nay
Nay
Aye

[minionofmidas]

I propose the following amendment.

Section 5: Guantanamo Bay
1. The prison camp located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is to be closed within six months after this act becomes law.

2.
a. All those presently detained without due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be released to their country of origin.
b. All those detained with due charge or detained though any other process of the law shall be put on trial.
c. All those who have been formally found guilty of charges brought before the court shall be transferred to a maximum security prison in Atlasia as per instructions of the judge.
d. All those found not guilty shall be released to their country of origin.

That doesn't solve anything.

-There is nobody charged as of right now irl, and only one convicted - and he's not at Gitmo anymore. (He made a bargain according to which both he and his home country - Australia - accepted the validity of the current legal setup - he was officially sentenced, and he could go home. He spent a couple of months in an Australian prison, and was released this december.)
Two more people were charged under the current setup, but these charges were dismissed. They nonetheless remain at Gitmo.

-I am not prepared to accept Bush's kangaroo court's verdicts - now Congress' kangaroo court, sorry bout that - as valid sentences by a legitimate court of law, due largely to judicial independence issues.
The US Supreme Court will rule on the issue again in Summer.

-Because the framework that set them up was set up well after Atlasia was founded, it can be safely considered not to exist in Atlasia (even if Atlasia does have a base at Gitmo, something I'm not too sure about.) Therefore, in Atlasia at any rate, Sections 2b and 2c are meaningless.

-Some of the people at Gitmo are (still) there only because releasing them to their country of origin would mean their certain death. A number of Chinese citizens, for instance. We'd need an asylum provision for these people. Even though they are, of course, Islamists, and potentially violent ones at that.
Approximately 70 of the approximately 355 at Gitmo are there either because of that or because their home country refuses to take them back. Approximately 420 additional people have passed through Gitmo's gates during the term of its existence.

Afleitch's well-intentioned but in effect half contentless, half potentially murderous amendment having been passed by the 25th Senate after being voted down by the 26th, with none of the points addressed here clarified (sorry Porce, the

existing ban on extraditing people who have a risk of facing death or torture

is not enough to satisfy my qualms. Not with any alternative allowed by the law) I'll do anything necessary to reopen debate in order to fix the problem, and everything possible to stop this monstrosity from becoming law.

As to the lesser-relevancy opening sections, I prefer the bill passed by the Senate to the presidential redraft, but don't particularly care.

I am therefore voting nay on the presidential redraft, and urging Meeker to reopen debate in case the nays have it, or failing that, urging Moderate to veto the bill.

[minionofmidas]

Current Tally on Redraft

Aye: 1 (CultureKing)
Nay: 3 (Meeker, Colin Wixted, Torie)
Abstain: 0
Yet to Vote: 6 (Lewis Trondheim, Conor Flynn, Verily, afleitch, EarlAW, DWTL)

Voting ends on 20 July at 11:59 PM.

I voted:

(snip)

I am therefore voting nay on the presidential redraft, (...)

I admit it was hidden in a jungle of text, but I thought highlighting it would take care of that.

[minionofmidas]

The original bill is submitted again to the President for his signature or veto.

I think Verily now has the choice to resubmit the original bill, or to reopen of debate?
Or has he informed you of his choice by pm? I want debate reopened. I intend to offer an amendment to the bill.

[minionofmidas]

The original bill is submitted again to the President for his signature or veto.

I think Verily now has the choice to resubmit the original bill, or to reopen of debate?
Or has he informed you of his choice by pm? I want debate reopened. I intend to offer an amendment to the bill.

Oh yes, my fault. The sponsor, Meeker, has the choice to either resubmit the original bill or re-open debate on the bill.

Oh, it's Meeker? Damn my faulty memory. Please reopen debate!

[minionofmidas]

"Section 3: Guantanamo Bay
1. The prison camp located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is to be closed within six months after this act becomes law.

2.
a. All those presently detained without due charge shall be released to their country of origin.
b. All those detained without due charge in whose cases release to country of origin is impossible due to disputed nationality or similar reasons, and all those detained without due charge threatened with torture or the death penalty in their country of origin, shall be released and granted political in Atlasia.
c. All those detained with due charge shall be transferred to the ordinary federal prison system, and put on trial within 120 days."

Open to debate about some of the wording etc here, but something along these lines. Other sections to remain as originally passed by the Senate. (I'm not sure about how "being charged" works/ed before the Kangaroo Courts - which are now unconstitutional irl - and anyways they never existed in Atlasia. We would need a rule that gives the government the right to file regular charges during the six months. Maybe Torie can write that.)


To recap my reasoning...

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Afleitch's well-intentioned but in effect half contentless, half potentially murderous amendment having been passed by the 25th Senate after being voted down by the 26th, with none of the points addressed here clarified (sorry Porce, the

existing ban on extraditing people who have a risk of facing death or torture

is not enough to satisfy my qualms. Not with any alternative allowed by the law) I'll do anything necessary to reopen debate in order to fix the problem, and everything possible to stop this monstrosity from becoming law.

As to the lesser-relevancy opening sections, I prefer the bill passed by the Senate to the presidential redraft, but don't particularly care.

I am therefore voting nay on the presidential redraft, and urging Meeker to reopen debate in case the nays have it, or failing that, urging Moderate to veto the bill.
[/quote]

[minionofmidas]

I am only prepared to grant the right of habeas corpus review by our Supreme Court to these prisoners. I am not prepared to vote for anything that releases some of these people who while there may be insufficient evidence to put them away.

I can only encourage you to read up on the diverse cases at Gitmo.
It's basically safe to say that, after a short period at the beginning and until September 2006, nobody whom the US government considered dangerous was brought to Gitmo, due to the danger of it being declared unconstitutional. Such people (all 14 of them) were instead held at wholly extralegal locations outside the reach of US courts.

[minionofmidas]

Consider it introduced.

[minionofmidas]

"Section 3: Guantanamo Bay
1. The prison camp located at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba is to be closed within six months after this act becomes law.

2.
a. All those presently detained without due charge shall be released to their country of origin.
b. All those detained without due charge in whose cases release to country of origin is impossible due to disputed nationality or similar reasons, and all those detained without due charge threatened with torture or the death penalty in their country of origin, shall be released and granted political in Atlasia.
c. All those detained with due charge shall be transferred to the ordinary federal prison system, and put on trial within 120 days."

Remaining sections to remain unchanged, of course.

[minionofmidas]

I accept the amendment as friendly.

[minionofmidas]

I accept the amendment as friendly.

It has to be Meeker who accepts it as he is the sponsor of the original bill.

Oh. Well in that case I withdraw my version. That should work, shouldn't it?

[minionofmidas]

Aye

[minionofmidas]

Neither Torie nor Lewis stated which bill they wanted to amendment, the presidential redraft or the original. I concluded that they wanted to amend the Presidential redraft due to the logic of the numbering however this goes against Meeker's original statement that he wanted legal prosecution for corporations under Section 1 of the original bill. I'd really like this clarified by the sponsors of both the bill and the amendment. I should have noticed it sooner but I really just wanted to get this thing out of the damn Senate as quickly as possible.

Seems that I overlooked the renumbering there. My bad, sorry.

[minionofmidas]

Hmm.  I'd like to sign the last three parts into law, but I'm not sure I'm willing to go along with the first.

I'm going to think about this for a little bit.

You do know you can't do a second presidential redraft, so it's all or nothing?

Just checking.

[minionofmidas]

Thank you!

[minionofmidas]

I will add this tonight when I get home from work. The title still says [Final passage at vote]. I was looking for Passed or Failed in the title.

That's because it opened under one PPT and passed under another. Colin couldn't edit Meeker's titles, I can't edit Colin's titles now (nothing passed yet, though. But won't take much longer - 3 hours to be precise. Well, 3 hours til it reaches the President's desk.)