Blair loses vote on Terror legislation

[minionofmidas]

And the same article also contains this weird line: "...but it does not mean he will have to stand down as prime minister..."

You mean that line is untruthful? You just made my day!

[minionofmidas]

This page records all occasions since 1918 that a division of the House of Commons has resulted in the defeat of the Government. It includes all divisions in which a whip was imposed and the government was defeated. This category includes, in practice, most divisions in the House. Divisions on Private Members’ Bills, Private Bills, and internal regulation of the House of Commons are not subject to a whip and are not therefore included, even if the line urged by the government was defeated.

There have been 119 divisions since the first world war in which the government has been defeated. As the table shows they were concentrated in the period 1974-79 when the government had either no majority or a very small majority.
(...)The closest any division has come to defeating the government was when the government had a majority of 5 in a division on the second reading of the Higher Education Bill. (...)
(explaining where that BBC line is coming from:) During the period 1945-70, when the government was only very rarely defeated, the impression grew up that a government which was defeated must either reverse the decision, seek a vote of confidence or resign. The occasional minor defeats in 1950-51 were accepted, but soon after the government called a general election. Only when Edward Heath’s government was defeated was there a realization that the government need only resign if it loses a vote of confidence. In 1993, John Major resorted to a vote of confidence to reverse his defeat on the social chapter of the Maastricht Treaty; a defeat by 8 votes turned into a victory by 40.

1918-22 Parliament - 5
1922-23 Parliament - 1
1924 Parliament - 14 (Labour minority government)
1924-29 Parliament - 0
1929-31 Parliament - 5 (Labour minority government)
1931-35 Parliament - 0
1935-45 Parliament - 5 (including 2 under Churchill)
1945-50 Parliament - 0
1950-51 Parliament - 5
1951-55 Parliament - 1
1955-59 Parliament - 0
1959-64 Parliament - 0
1964-66 Parliament - 5
1966-70 Parliament - 1
1970-74 Parliament - 6
1974 Parliament - 18 (Labour minority government)
1974-79 Parliament - 42
1979-83 Parliament - 1
1983-87 Parliament - 2
1987-92 Parliament - 1
1992-97 Parliament - 9 (including 4 on the same day)
1997-2001 Parliament - 0
2001-05 Parliament - 0

[minionofmidas]

The BBC is still living in the '60's

Indeed.

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What's going on?

[minionofmidas]

What's going on?

The ticker says it's passed. It links you to the main article which doesn't mention by what majority passed.

Yeah, I noticed that. I also noticed the Parliament's own website doesn't have anything on today yet, seems they update it daily after business hours.

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That went to Simon Hughes as payment for his guest commentary.

[minionofmidas]

Found figures for the 28 day vote (from SkyNews)...

Yes: 323
No: 290

They just took the 90-day vote figures and reversed them, then changed them by one so they wouldn't look too suspicious.

[minionofmidas]

Sky also says they think sources tell them 41 Labour MPs voted against the 90 days. And that Dobbo was amongst them. Good for him.

[minionofmidas]

I am ing livid :>)

90 days? The bastards should be held indefinately. Bloody lefty Labour fruits aligning themselves with the feckless Tories and Lib Dims/Dums (whatever?) 28 days is not good enough

Well, sentence them in that case.

[minionofmidas]

90 day - AGAINST. Duh.
28 day - depends. What party was I sitting for again? How important is another fight to me. Voting my conscience? AGAINST. And AGAINST keeping it at 14 days.

Demo - this is without charge. If you have any legally obtained evidence against somebody whatsoever, you will be able to charge them, even if they might get aquitted (not to mention be innocent) after all. If you can't, as a police force with their might, then you really have no reason to arrest them in the first place. There are exceptional circumstances where more than the standard (depends on country) 24 or 48 or 72 hours may be necessary. But 14 days is very long, and 90 days is grotesque (forget about Gitmo - no terrorist ever saw the inside of Gitmo or my real name is Lewis Trondheim.) There are no realist arguments for this extension - the public support is a knee-jerk reaction.

In full: The Labour terror rebels  
Here is the full list of the 49 Labour MPs who rebelled against the government in the Commons vote on allowing police to detain terror suspects without charge for up to 90 days. (No word on any Tory and LD rebels.)

Diane Abbott (Hackney North & Stoke Newington)
John Austin (Erith & Thamesmead)
Richard Burden (Birmingham Northfield)
Michael Clapham (Barnsley West & Penistone)
Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran)
Harry Cohen (Leyton & Wanstead)
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North)
Jim Cousins (Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
Ann Cryer (Keighley)
Frank Dobson (Holborn & St Pancras)
Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe & Nantwich)
Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent Central)
Paul Flynn (Newport West)
Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow)
Ian Gibson (Norwich North)
Roger Godsiff (Birmingham Sparkbrook & Small Heath)
John Grogan (Selby)
David Hamilton (Midlothian)
Doug Henderson (Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North)
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead & Highgate)
Sian James (Swansea East)
Lynne Jones (Birmingham Selly Oak)
Sadiq Khan (Tooting)
Peter Kilfoyle (Liverpool Walton)
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North & Leith)
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central)
Andy Love (Edmonton)
Christine McCafferty (Calder Valley)
John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington)
Bob Marshall-Andrews (Medway)
Michael Meacher (Oldham West & Royton)
Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)
George Mudie (Leeds East)
Chris Mullin (Sunderland South)
Gordon Prentice (Pendle)
Nick Raynsford (Greenwich & Woolwich)
Linda Riordan (Halifax)
Clare Short (Birmingham Ladywood)
Alan Simpson (Nottingham South)
Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South)
David Taylor (Leicestershire North West)
Emily Thornberry (Islington South & Finsbury)
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth)
Bob Wareing (Liverpool West Derby)
David Winnick (Walsall North)
Mike Wood (Batley & Spen)

[minionofmidas]

Hey, Afleitch:

Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran)
David Hamilton (Midlothian)
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North & Leith)

Which part about "Scottish" do you not understand?

[minionofmidas]

Here in portugal is two years.

Without charge? I don't believe that's correct.

[minionofmidas]

Uncle of the House [chuckles].

I'd figured that, if there was no Tory or LD rebel, 16 Labour and 14 Opposition MPs did not vote. Change that to 17 Labour and 13 Opposition, now...

Still nobody with a list of 28 day rebels?

Oh, and btw. It's not as if demand for 90 day detentions came from the people, and it#s not as if it will long outlive this vote. The Tories may have made a minor tactical mistake not voting for the 28 days, though. That could have been marketed aggressively as a "pro-police, but with a brain" position.

[minionofmidas]

I think The Guardian lists those MPs who didn't vote. Do you know who the real hypocrite was in this vote? The Rev. Ian Paisley of the Democrratic Unionist Party. I've just gone right off that dude

Dave

Pure self interest. Unlike actual Islamic terrorists, here is someone whom the law might actually have taken hold of.

[minionofmidas]

All votes cast in 28 days vote

And the 28 days vote is damned peculiar, I mean *damned* peculiar. Did the government want no holding time at all?

Wait a sec - so the 28 days was voted for by the Tories after all and voted no by the Government? In other words, no compromise measure was passed but rather, the government was defeated twice in a row by the same margin?

[minionofmidas]

I was talking to the Muslims in my local Tandoori last night and they were disgusted that the Bill was watered down. They gave me a nan bread on the house. All law-abiding citizens, who abhor terrorism, should be appalled

Dave

It's not a question of Muslim vs non-Muslim...nor of law-abiding vs non-law-abiding...nor even a question of class though that comes into play indirectly...seems more like a question of thought-through vs not-thought-through.

[minionofmidas]

I always find it interesting that upon every terrorist act, governments always sieze rights from the people.

Actually it was the police that demanded 90 days; the Government just went along with it.

The police is a part of government.

[minionofmidas]

The police is a part of government.

Sort of; but only in the way that the NHS is. Depends what is meant by "government".

I know...but this is the sense that Bono was talking here.