Dutch referendum: No wins 63-37 (user search)
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  Dutch referendum: No wins 63-37 (search mode)
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Author Topic: Dutch referendum: No wins 63-37  (Read 5839 times)
minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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« on: May 23, 2005, 04:54:09 AM »

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2005, 05:40:16 AM »

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.
Maybe Sweden overall but Netherlands is at least socially most left-wing.
It's mostly marijuana that creates that image.
It's not really true.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2005, 08:01:45 AM »

Netherlands the most left wing country in the world? Hardly.
Maybe Sweden overall but Netherlands is at least socially most left-wing.
It's mostly marijuana that creates that image.
It's not really true.

And same-sex marriage? I always got the impression the Netherlands and Belgium were the most libertarian countries in the world (outside Somalia Wink ) and Scandanavia had the most socialist countries.

What make the Netherlands not so left wing? I never got the impression it was Conservative from being there. Maybe it's the whole anti-immigration thing?
Well Amsterdam is certainly not Conservative...
Same-sex marriage was introduced in Scandinavia at about the same time as in the Netherlands. (And in France and Germany at about the same time as in Belgium...thou' we don't call it "marriage"...)
The Netherlands have some pretty bible-beltish corners - more so than anywhere else in Northwest Europe, actually. It's also got old layers of Catholic-Protestant rivalry worked deep into the national subconscious. Which is in part why governments, for a hundred years, have almost always been pretty big tent coalitions. Dutch "official" politics have, for a long long while, been largely about compromise and tolerance - which sort of opened the door to that left-libertarian streak you (and most people) are perceiving.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 11:46:38 AM »

He was using the US definition. I think.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2005, 02:37:24 PM »

Where is the Dutch bible belt? When I went there, we only spent half our time in Amsterdam, and half in the small town of Zutphen, which is in Gelderland. Another liberal thing I picked up in the Netherlands, is that you cant get "officialy" married in a church, you have to do it at city hall.
Well, that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe. A church will only marry you if you*re already married.
I wouldn`t consider that all that liberal - more like statist. Although it is a result of the classical liberals`struggles with the Catholic church, back in the 19th century.

As for the Bible Belt - it's not really a belt. The Netherlands has several small pockets where people belong to fundamentalist splinter groups off the Dutch Calvinist church, are very devout, refuse to get inoculated, and vote for their own parties, the CU and the SGP. The latter being the more out-there one. At the second-to-last elections (not sure about the last ones) they polled below 1% almost everywhere but won three townships.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2005, 03:46:24 PM »

As I said, they're sort of scattered...absolutely can`t find a link right now to Netherlands results by township, sorry.
Only thing I find is by province...which does not to any extent give an idea of the SGP vote`s concentration.

Drenthe CU 2.9, SGP 0.3
Flevoland CU 3.6, SGP 2.1
Friesland CU 3.2, SGP 0.4
Gelderland CU 2.5, SGP 3.0
Groningen CU 4.4, SGP 0.3
Limburg CU 0.3, SGP 0.1
Noord-Brabant CU 0.6, SGP 0.4
Noord-Holland CU 1.0, SGP 0.2
Overijssel CU 4.4, SGP 2.2
Utrecht CU 3.1, SGP 2.0
Zeeland CU 2.9, SGP 7.7
Zuid-Holland CU 2.2, SGP 2.6


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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2005, 03:38:23 AM »

I believe the word you're looking for is "municipality".
Some of em are pretty largeish...I tried to make myself understood. Smiley
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2005, 06:23:02 AM »

One word: Turkey. Many are against the constitution for that reason. People don't want an populus Muslim country in the EU. If it joined it would automatically become the largest state and the migration flood gates would be opened. It's not even European. It has a toe hold on Europe due to a simple treaty.
Germany is larger. Not to mention that immigration from Turkey is pretty easy already, at least compared to just about anywhere else.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2005, 07:18:39 AM »

Germany's population is falling and Turkey's is rising.  Turkey will overtake Germany within less than 20 years.
Unless they all move here first. Smiley
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Uh - where's the difference? Huh
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Look at the treaties with the new eastern European member states - which are rather poorer than Turkey btw - the EU's otherwise liberal internal migration rules won't take effect there for years and years. You can bet any admission of Turkey will have similar paragraphs.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
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Posts: 58,206
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2005, 11:36:25 AM »

Immigration: To enter and settle in a country or region to which one is not native. Example. Turkey- non EU member. So Turks entering the EU currently would be classified as immigrants.

Migration: Takes place WITHIN nations or regions (the EU) which are native. So someone moving from Edinburgh to London would be a migrant (both cities being part of the UK) and someone moving from Paris to Madrid would also be a migrant by definition (as Paris is a city in France, and Madrid a city in Spain which are both part of the region the EU)

So...if Turkey joins the EU; Turks entering say Austria from Turkey would be migrants. Their status would have changed from immigrant to migrant upon joining the EU

By definition migrants and immigrants are not the same thing, a fact overlooked by people who try to trivialise the real issues some people have with the EU and issues around economic migration.
Not quite...
an immigrant is someone moving into a place
an emigrant is someone moving away from a place
a migrant is someone moving, full stop.
Obviously even under your definition, the distinction is purely technical.
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Interesting point. That had escaped me.

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Not to mention Caribbean immigration - in fact until five years ago or so, that was always the main focus of Dutch anti-immigration agitation. (Since the 70s. Before that, it was Christian Indonesian immigration.)
Problem was that nothing much could be done...seeing as people from the Dutch Antilles are Dutch citizens. They're trying to do something now though...creating a huge uproar in the Antilles.
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Well it had one before 1923 as well...but yeah, point taken...
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...although what does the Constitution have to do with the admission of Turkey? Oh, well, voters...
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...and these are by far the most legitimate concerns.
The Kurdish legal situation is so that admission right now is absolutely not an option. On the "Armenian" front, the issue is purely one of freedom of speech. On both counts, it is precisely the Ataturkian, "Westernizing" tradition that is the problem. Which is a little weird.
The rise of political Islam in Turkey occurred in the 70s, ie as soon as there were free elections. I suppose you're talking about the Islamic parties breakthrough into the mainstream - forming the government for a first and now a second time.
They have moderated a lot - and they have had strong civil rights, and even pro-European planks in their programs even before that. Most pro-European liberals voted AKP at the last elections. Of course, it's in part just a case of joint enemies, ie Ataturkist generals.
On the Cyprus question, I've always been of the opinion that the Turks were more sinned against than sinning - and the events of the last few years have proved me right. I think if they could, most European politicians would like to undo the admission of only part of Cyprus.
As to the agrarian sector - true. All true. Although the gulf is not as wide as it was when Spain, Portugal and Greece were admitted in the 80s.
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2005, 02:17:16 AM »


The rise of political Islam in Turkey occurred in the 70s, ie as soon as there were free elections. I suppose you're talking about the Islamic parties breakthrough into the mainstream - forming the government for a first and now a second time.
They have moderated a lot - and they have had strong civil rights, and even pro-European planks in their programs even before that. Most pro-European liberals voted AKP at the last elections. Of course, it's in part just a case of joint enemies, ie Ataturkist generals.

Basically, in many respects Electionworld has it right - the AKP is now an 'Islam-Democratic' party, filling the same spot the Christian Democrats do. [there's also a 'Buddhist-Democratic' Party in Japan, the Kt...one of these days maybe we'll have Hindu-Democratic and Jewish-Democratic parties as well (I'm not sure Israel has a party that quite fits the definition...)]

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Pardon me if the prospect of pampered French farmers losing some of their CAP subsidies fails to fill me with anguish. Tongue
Let alone German ones. Tongue
I'm not a great fan of subsidies to the rich either. [/understatement]
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minionofmidas
Lewis Trondheim
Atlas Institution
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Posts: 58,206
India


« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2005, 05:06:07 PM »

In that year, the largest benefactors were:
France with a little over 9000 million euro.
Germany nearly 6000 million.
Italy about 5000 million.
Spain and UK about 4500 million.
Greece just under 3000 million.
Ireland and Netherlands 2000 million.
Denmark got under 1500 million.
Take into account that France has more farmers than Germany. More than twice as high a share of the population. While Britain's is even lower than Germany's. So, of the major countries, German and British farmers are taking home the highest per capita amounts.
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