Sarkozy = Idiot

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Sarkozy = Idiot

In general, I strongly agree with your statement. But among every measures of Sarkozy administration, this is probably one of the best. Burqa is an oppression factor that has nothing to do in a democratic and free country. We must fight muslim fundamentalism and his reactionary practices.

Hear, hear. France is a secular state and must remain so.

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France is a secular state and must remain so.

Secular in private life or government?

Government. But we must fight Muslim fundamentalism and oppression.

This is banning the burqas, not the headscarf only. I've little problems with headscarves, but a full black burqa has no place in France. France isn't Riyadh, for god's sake.

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France is a secular state and must remain so.

Secular in private life or government?

Government. But we must fight Muslim fundamentalism and oppression.

This is banning the burqas, not the headscarf only. I've little problems with headscarves, but a full black burqa has no place in France. France isn't Riyadh, for god's sake.

Wow. Just...wow.

Again, ignoring the will of women that actually want to wear it because France "isn't Riyadh."

This is the same genius that rails against xenophobic, nationalist fascists, right?  Where do we draw the line? Does Sarkozy now want to regulate what happens in mosques as well? Is he going to force mosques to allow women and men to pray together? I mean, why shouldn't he? This "isn't Riyadh," right?

I know I'm defending a position that's hated by a majority of the forum, but I'll stick to it.

France should ban conspicuous religious symbols in public places. I don't care what happens in mosques or in homes, it's their business. And I assume Sarkozy recognizes that too. Once again, I repeat that the law which I support is a restriction of the usage of burqas. Not a law which bans all headscarves, voila. There is a distinction between burqa and headscarf. They're not the same.

Again, the burqa creates a social rift in France and other places between Muslims and non-Muslims. Racism, or quasi-racism, against Muslims in prevalent in the 93 or Paris, and wearing a burqa doesn't help the situation. Efforts should be made to mend this social rift by taking steps to assimilate them into society, not in a nationalist way, but also to prevent racism from occuring. Religion is private.

I support a law in this mold and I support the general intent, but I'll wait until I read the actual text to support the thing specifically or not.

I don't see how this is at all xenophobic or fascist. Even the staunchest opponents of this in France haven't used those words, and believe me, they like to use them a lot. I haven't seen the opponents of this law in this very thread blast it calling it those names.

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I don't see how this is at all xenophobic or fascist. Even the staunchest opponents of this in France haven't used those words, and believe me, they like to use them a lot. I haven't seen the opponents of this law in this very thread blast it calling it those names.

Well, it's probably not seen as "fascists" in France since the fascists are probably enjoying seeing the Muslims lose something they want.

The word fascist is thrown around in a pejorative sense by numerous people in France.

I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

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I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

How do I know what? That women want to wear it or that you don't want them to wear it?

I know that there actually are women that want to wear it from numerous documentaries and from one on one conversations with Muslim individuals.

The former. If we're going to use personal experiences as evidence, then I and others could obviously dig up a whole load of personal evidence to counter that, but that's quite flawed, as I think you'd agree.

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I don't like the idea that Muslim women want the burqa. How do you know that?

How do I know what? That women want to wear it or that you don't want them to wear it?

I know that there actually are women that want to wear it from numerous documentaries and from one on one conversations with Muslim individuals.

The former. If we're going to use personal experiences as evidence, then I and others could obviously dig up a whole load of personal evidence to counter that, but that's quite flawed, as I think you'd agree.

But I'm not saying that my evidence is true for a majority and that yours isn't. I'm just concerned about the women that still want to wear them, regardless of what percentage of the Muslim population that make up.

And that's a fair concern, and one which doesn't have an easy solution in this case. I hope that whatever law is passed actually takes this into account.

I personally think that these people who want to wear it are a very small minority, but this isn't an affirmation or a truth.

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Personally, Islamic day wear is ok so long as it doesn't impede identification. If it leaves the woman's entire face and some of her hair exposed, then I don't care what else she wears. But I get the strong impression that Sarkozy's ban goes farther than this.

The whole point of a burqa is that it covers the face. Sarkozy is not calling for the ban of headscarves.

Exactly.