Attention doomers: No, Trump cannot use state legislators/faithless electors to steal election

[Hammy]

Are there actually people claiming Trump will get DEMOCRATIC electors to vote for him?

[Hammy]

Ah yes, the "but the Republicans will follow the law" defense. If I see it again I think I'm going to puke.

Republicans only use the law as a cudgel to beat their opponents with. They do not obey it themselves.

The Trump administration has just spent four years successfully violating the law and Constitution on a daily basis.

If the Republicans attempt a coup (because that's what we're talking about here - a coup under the pretense of law) they're not going to be stopped by legal technicalities. They'll do it, and present the rest of us with the choice of starting a civil war or pretending to agree with their post-facto made-up BS excuses for why it was technically legal. I'm not convinced they will, but I'm far from re-assured they won't, either.

If you want an example of how such interference might work, look at Michigan. It's election law has a hole in it the size of Trump's diseased ego:

The electors of president and vice-president shall convene in the senate chamber at the capitol of the  state  at  2  p.m.,  eastern  standard  time,  on  the  first  Monday  after  the  second  Wednesday  in  December following  their  election.

No access for the electors to the Michigan senate chamber in Lansing at the designated time, and their electoral votes are arguably invalid, if they even can be cast. The GOP can doubtless find a judge who would "regretfully" agree that since the law didn't provide for an alternate convention, they cannot now vote.  

The courts are well-aware that if they say "f--k it" to the law here and allow an election to be blatantly stolen before everyone's eyes in a far more grievous way than Bush v. Gore ever was, everything American democracy AND rule of law is built on falls apart instantly. Most of these people are institutionalists who actually would care about that, even if some nutty GOP legislators don't. There is a reason every one of their challenges so far has been laughed out of court.

It's just not going to happen. Have a drink, take a Xanax, just f--king breathe, do whatever it takes to relax. I get the PTSD from 2016 on is strong, but it's over now. You CAN in fact breathe again.

I mean for Christ's sake, MARK MEADOWS is telling Trump to concede. Imagine knowing that and still worrying about a "coup."

There is no PTSD from 2016 involved here--you are assuming that people think Trump can still win the election (though there is a strangely high number of people here who do still seem to think this)

And this whole "no it can't happen because laws" talk is naive and assumes Republicans are honest people who honor the law, when the reality is they've shown no regard for democracy so far. And yes, this will be the end of democracy--hence why this possibility needs to be absolutely taken seriously rather than dismissed as doomerism or PTSD--especially from people who thought a Democratic Texas was a sure thing.

[Hammy]

Ah yes, the "but the Republicans will follow the law" defense. If I see it again I think I'm going to puke.

Republicans only use the law as a cudgel to beat their opponents with. They do not obey it themselves.

The Trump administration has just spent four years successfully violating the law and Constitution on a daily basis.

If the Republicans attempt a coup (because that's what we're talking about here - a coup under the pretense of law) they're not going to be stopped by legal technicalities. They'll do it, and present the rest of us with the choice of starting a civil war or pretending to agree with their post-facto made-up BS excuses for why it was technically legal. I'm not convinced they will, but I'm far from re-assured they won't, either.

If you want an example of how such interference might work, look at Michigan. It's election law has a hole in it the size of Trump's diseased ego:

The electors of president and vice-president shall convene in the senate chamber at the capitol of the  state  at  2  p.m.,  eastern  standard  time,  on  the  first  Monday  after  the  second  Wednesday  in  December following  their  election.

No access for the electors to the Michigan senate chamber in Lansing at the designated time, and their electoral votes are arguably invalid, if they even can be cast. The GOP can doubtless find a judge who would "regretfully" agree that since the law didn't provide for an alternate convention, they cannot now vote.  

The courts are well-aware that if they say "f--k it" to the law here and allow an election to be blatantly stolen before everyone's eyes in a far more grievous way than Bush v. Gore ever was, everything American democracy AND rule of law is built on falls apart instantly. Most of these people are institutionalists who actually would care about that, even if some nutty GOP legislators don't. There is a reason every one of their challenges so far has been laughed out of court.

It's just not going to happen. Have a drink, take a Xanax, just f--king breathe, do whatever it takes to relax. I get the PTSD from 2016 on is strong, but it's over now. You CAN in fact breathe again.

I mean for Christ's sake, MARK MEADOWS is telling Trump to concede. Imagine knowing that and still worrying about a "coup."

There is no PTSD from 2016 involved here--you are assuming that people think Trump can still win the election (though there is a strangely high number of people here who do still seem to think this)

And this whole "no it can't happen because laws" talk is naive and assumes Republicans are honest people who honor the law, when the reality is they've shown no regard for democracy so far. And yes, this will be the end of democracy--hence why this possibility needs to be absolutely taken seriously rather than dismissed as doomerism or PTSD--especially from people who thought a Democratic Texas was a sure thing.

Two major things to unpack here:

1. No it is not naive. It's not up to "Republicans." It's up to the courts, which have so far laughed every challenge the GOP has thrown at them out of court. Even that ultra-conservative judge in Texas, remember? They literally have no case, no evidence, no legal basis for any claims. They won't even reach SCOTUS, let alone be upheld by them, because there is literally nothing there. Bush v. Gore was a case of a recount being halted in one state, and there was at least some legitimate legal justification for it. "All mail votes are fake because I don't like them, therefore let's just throw out hundreds of thousands of legally cast ballots" or "I don't like who won so now I'm changing the rules" are in a different world.

Again, I'm basing this on REAL THINGS THAT HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED IN RECENT DAYS/WEEKS ALONE. It's one thing to speculate that conservative justices might fail to uphold the law when we have no proof they will; after we have about a dozen or so instances in which they JUST DID, there is no longer any rational reason to think this. I am not being naive; you are being paranoid.

2. I never, not once, ever, in a million years, EVER said Texas was a "sure thing." I said I thought we COULD win Texas, which the polls supported, as did the trends from 2016 and 2018. I NEVER said we WOULD, let alone that it was a "sure thing." You are just outright lying now. I base my opinions on concrete evidence whenever possible, and we already have that as far as what the courts are deciding. When it came to predicting Texas, I went on the best data I had -- polls in saying we MIGHT win. But it's not the same league as saying with ABSOLUTE CONFIDENCE (and you CAN quote me on that) that we HAVE won already based on MUCH more solid evidence and reason.

Oh and by the way, pretty sure YOU said blue Georgia would never happen. Didn't you even say Texas was a more likely flip? Hmm...

Hell, didn't you even specifically doom over the Republicans who run Georgia rigging the election? Pretty clear now that didn't happen...

The problem here is people are claiming, with absolute certainty, that Republicans CANNOT do this, and I'm saying that yes, they actually can, and laws will not stop them if they truly want to. I'm not treating this like a sure thing (though it's absolutely terrifying--especially that such a thing shouldn't even be in the realm of discussion in the first place) but it's foolish to completely dismiss this as impossible.

While it may very well fail in the end, they're definitely going to try every avenue they have: first was the courts, that failed. They still have the state legislatures, blocking vote certification or electoral votes (which would send it to the Senate), Pence being part of the counting process, and challenging electors or entire states' elector slate when the Senate formally certifies the electoral votes in January.

Republicans absolutely can, and most certainly will, try all of these avenues, using the technicalities of existing laws in their favor--and they only have to succeed once for it to be legally binding, regardless of the fact that Biden has actually won.

Worse yet, people seem either okay that this is even a possibility in the first place (even if it turns out it's only 1%) or in denial that it is.