Would eastern and western Ukraine be better off going their separate ways? (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 27, 2024, 11:45:42 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Would eastern and western Ukraine be better off going their separate ways? (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Poll
Question: Would eastern and western Ukraine be better off going their separate ways?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 89

Author Topic: Would eastern and western Ukraine be better off going their separate ways?  (Read 20759 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,853
Ireland, Republic of


« on: February 25, 2014, 06:13:30 AM »

For those arguing in favour of the split can you please look at this map...



And explain to me what would have been - on the basis of the map - an appropriate way of splitting that country into coherent units in 1913?

And then once that is done, try and think of a mechanism of how such a split could have come about in a realistic alternative history.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,853
Ireland, Republic of


« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 04:06:22 PM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Ummm no... Look at Lviv, Brasov or Cluj for example and remember those were the largest cities in their respective regions. Across Eastern Europe of the period the ethnic makeup of cities could often be quite different to the agricultural regions surrounding them. Another problem of dividing up these territories into 'rational' borders.

And that map doesn't show historic claims - Pressburg (Aka Bratislava) being the historical capital of Hungary, Prague being a majority German city until, what, the middle of the nineteenth Century. Given that that was a map representing 1913, that represents the same amount of time in passing as between now and the era of Second World War and Stalinism.

(Also note that this map doesn't even bother to distinguish between Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks, who all after all spoke effectively the same language)

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

Ah, you may not realize this but you are engaging in that classic American historiographical trope of arguing that all the world's problems might have been different had only AMERICA taken the right course.

Of course, that's nonsense as is this argument. America had no way of enforcing Central European land boundaries - the boundaries that were 'fixed' by post-war treaties were often ad hoc justifications for land grabs that had already taken place (How else can you explain Transylvania?). As for allowing Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia to go their separate ways - you do realize that was contradictory to Serbian war aims from the beginning of 1914 - you know, the country that started the war. Across what became Yugoslavia guerilla warfare was fought in support of 'Greater Serbia'. Where those borders lay - or how 'Serbs' could genuinely be identified (and Serbia's government at the time identified Croats as 'Crypto-Serbs' or Serbs that didn't know they were Serbs) - remember they all spoke the same language in effect - was hardly clear. Your scenario would have led to a much great bloodbath probably ending with British and French intervention to lord knows what effect. (But probably with Italy annexing large parts of what's now the Slovenian and Croatian Coast)

Hell, the borders of Bosnia are still in contention now despite the breaking apart of Yugoslavia into 'coherent' and 'rational' boundaries based on nationality.

Btw, on that note: What nationality would define Macedonians as being? What about in 1911 (when all that region was part of the Ottoman Empire)? What about Albanians - are they one or two peoples; their 'dialects' are often unintelligible to each other...

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

A solution which would have satisfied no-one - like the post-war treaties. And for someone supporting the breakup of countries, you seem keen on 'Yugoslavia'.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,853
Ireland, Republic of


« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 04:27:24 PM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

A solution which would have satisfied no-one - like the post-war treaties. And for someone supporting the breakup of countries, you seem keen on 'Yugoslavia'.

I never said that Ukraine should split up (and Yugoslavia was, at least objectively, a better deal than the breakup, at least as it happened). Those just seemed like the least bad borders (other than a few tweaks I could make now that I look at it again) that could be carved out of the Habsburg Empire.

You are making the error of assuming that it seems 'rational' for a cartographic point of view (as seen in Lancaster, PA!) is necessarily the best solution on the ground.

(least bad = rational and coherent !)
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,853
Ireland, Republic of


« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 07:17:10 PM »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I was keeping things simple.

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I was going to mention Jews but I was unsure of the numbers. I knew though that their urban density was even more so further east in cities such as Odessa... which, of course, is in the modern Ukraine and is now totally Slavified (that's one Ethnic community... why can't these Slavs get along?). Thank god, I suppose, those boundaries are now in the shape of rationally organized communities or something....

Macedonians are of course somewhat serbish bulgarians.

Or are they somewhat Bulgarianish Serbs?
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.027 seconds with 15 queries.