Do you prefer the Old Left or the New Left in America? (user search)
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  Do you prefer the Old Left or the New Left in America? (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Poll
Question: Which do you prefer?
#1
Old Left (D)
 
#2
New Left (D)
 
#3
Old Left (R)
 
#4
New Left (R)
 
#5
Old Left (I/O)
 
#6
New Left (I/O)
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 89

Author Topic: Do you prefer the Old Left or the New Left in America?  (Read 2058 times)
Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,082
« on: December 31, 2021, 12:37:02 PM »

I am Old Left and proud of it.
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Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,082
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2021, 01:33:02 PM »

None of these descriptors describe the Old Left

How would you describe it? The descriptor I've heard in the past would be whether or not one uses a Marxist/vanguardist approach and focused mainly on questions of labor unionizations and social class, versus those who more broadly reject the Marxist class conflict framework and focus more on socially progressive values.
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Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,082
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2022, 12:11:22 PM »

New Left, because I'm not a racist class reductionist.

Didn't the Old Left support the Civil Rights movement?

Yes and the descriptions of the OP are oversimplified and not accurate whatsoever.

All he said was that the Old Left was "more class reductionist," vis-a-vis the New Left which is presumably "more intersectional." Ignoring the fact that "class reductionist" has become something of a slur, one can still acknowledge the class-based reality of the Civil Rights Movements (as many of the Civil Rights leaders themselves did) and support it on that basis, as all credible leftists of the time did.
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Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,082
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2022, 01:32:56 PM »

New Left, because I'm not a racist class reductionist.

Didn't the Old Left support the Civil Rights movement?

Yes and the descriptions of the OP are oversimplified and not accurate whatsoever.

All he said was that the Old Left was "more class reductionist," vis-a-vis the New Left which is presumably "more intersectional." Ignoring the fact that "class reductionist" has become something of a slur, one can still acknowledge the class-based reality of the Civil Rights Movements (as many of the Civil Rights leaders themselves did) and support it on that basis, as all credible leftists of the time did.

Not really. Let’s break this down further.

What are the differences between the two? Some of these are subjective, but some high-level observations…

Industries: Old Left more trades, New Left more services
Immigration: Old Left more skeptical of immigration
Environment: New Left more hawkish on climate
Internationalism: Old Left was more isolationist
Identity: Old Left was more class reductionist

In general it seems the power base has shifted from Northeast and Midwest to Acela and I5.

The Old Left also viewed employers as adversaries. The New Left is a lot more corporate-friendly.

Immigration was a less mainstream issue when the “Old Left” was in power to a large extent compared to today but given “they” inacted the 1965 immigration act and the seeds to the Old Left voted against the 1923 immigration act. Industries really depended on the time and region but Harry Truman in his 1948 DNC speech said Democrats would tear down “trade barriers”. Climate change was a niche issue until the 80s and 90s but in the northeast at least pro-environment has been a constant among Democrats for a century. Considering the New Left emerged in part due to opposition to the Vietnam War, the foreign policy point is very difficult to reason with. The rest of the post I agree with decently but is still probably an oversimplification.

But what part of that has to deal with the Civil Rights movement? Even if OP was accurate in his definition of Old Left, the VRA has little to do with environmentalism, feminism, immigration, foreign policy, trade policy, or whatever other pet issue there is. So there's nothing about OP's definition, however faulty it may be, that would indicate the Old Left would not support Civil Rights.

As you mention there is no perfect definition of the "Old Left" or "New Left" position, because like anything else, it varies from time to place. However, the Old and New Left are just that: Left. So any iteration of the Democratic Party would not count because the Democrats were at no point ever trying to overcome capitalism and replace it with socialism. The most left-wing Democratic president, Franklin Roosevelt, went no further than Keynesianism. You could call Roosevelt, Truman, and Johnson representatives of "old guard liberalism," but they were not leftists of any kind.
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Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,082
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2022, 01:59:10 PM »

In a sense then, anyone on the left in the 21st century is automatically a member of the New Left by virtue of when they are alive.

Would you claim that KKE and the CPRF are "new left"?
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Big Abraham
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 6,082
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2022, 02:05:19 PM »

In a sense then, anyone on the left in the 21st century is automatically a member of the New Left by virtue of when they are alive.

Would you claim that KKE and the CPRF are "new left"?
The KKE is to the left of Syriza now and AOC ever on border control, wanting refugees and asylum seekers free access to a right to live without being put in concentration camps and a right to sustain themselves in Greece. Makes sense given the KKE is mainly made up of refugees from Turkey.

Admittedly, their policy on same-sex unions and drug reform is at odds with what the New Left believes.
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