Church of England to split

[JSojourner]

All the cool people split from the Anglican Church in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, anyway.

Well, to be serious, the Anglican Communion is on life support right now, and its not looking good for it.  I don't think anyone should be surprised that this is the fate of a "church" that is literally founded on the notion that it is okay to sell out your principles whenever it becomes convenient.  The funny thing is, I can say this with reasonable assurance that I won't offend any of our British friends, since fewer than 1% of all people in Britain currently identify with the Anglican Communion.

As an Anglican (an Episcopalian), I have to agree with you strongly -- in part.  And disagree just as strongly.  Let me explain.

First, there are very few absolutes -- even in Christianity.  We may think there are, but so many of them are man-made and based entirely on human interpretation of the Bible.  Human interpretation is always subject to flaw, error and mishandling.  This is why we have some Roman Catholics who view the Blessed Virgin as co-redemptrix with Christ.  And why we have some non-Catholics who regard her as "just another Bible character".  Neither seems to me to be sound ground.  Your view of the Blessed Mother, Soulty, seems most logical and sane.

But my point is, Christians major on minors and minor on majors.  In the Episcopal Church, we are coming apart at the seams over matters that the Bible says relatively little about -- and even what is written can be adequately and honestly interpreted by both liberal and conservative scholars to defend their respective positions.  It's no different than Protestants splitting over whether the gift of tongues is for the present or just for the early church...or whether or not there is a "rapture".  Churches split over these things that matter -- but don't matter that much.

What the Episcopal Church SHOULD split over is the Nicene Creed.  Though not Scripture, it summarizes exactly what one must believe in order to be a Christian.  That's not to say one cannot have periods of doubt.  But to say the creed weekly, or even daily, and flatly reject the idea that Jesus Christ is "true God from true God"...that he died for our sins...and that he is literally, bodily risen from the dead is absolute heresy. 

I welcome the presence of any Christian in the Episcopal church -- gay or straight, conservative or liberal, left or right.  What they believe about the sacrament matters, but not nearly as much as what they believe about Jesus.  What they believe about the creation of the world matters, but nowhere near as much as what they believe about redemption and resurrection.

That my church is splitting over sexuality is about the dumbest thing I can imagine to split over.  The conservatives say  the gays are a threat to families, to children and to Scripture.  The liberals say the conservatives are hate-filled bigots.  Both sides are being stupid.

When I help give the sacrament to communicants (in our diocese, licensed lay people can assist the priest), there are no liberals or conservatives, gays or straights, mature or immature Christians at the altar.  Only sinners in need of a Savior.  What does the old chorus say?  "Where saints and sinners are friends?"

The Anglican Communion could survive forever without ever settling or agreeing on issues of sexuality.  So what if some parish in South Carolina leaves the Episcopal Church to come under the authority of some uber conservative African Bishop?  If they really need to do that -- if their faith in Jesus is so threatened at the thought of a gay priest or a female priest -- then God bless them in their journey. 

What worries me is that the Anglican Communion cannot survive the presence of a few theologians, bishops and priests who flatly deny and are openly hostile to what is taught in the Nicene Creed.  There are not many absolutes in Christianity.  But there are a few -- Jesus is God in the flesh.  He died for our sins, a perfect sacrifice.  He has risen from the dead, literally and bodily.  Those few absolutes should be utterly non-negotiable.  Not necessarily for the seeker in the pews.  But certainly for any Deacon, Priest or Bishop.

And to the extent that we fail to stand on that ground, yes -- I agree.  The Anglican Communion is in grave danger.  But I am sure that if the church does collapse 'round itself, the spin from its critics within and without will be --  "look what those damn queers did".

[JSojourner]

It's interesting to note that the Church of England has produced some of the most brilliant theologians of the late 20th and early 21st centuries.  I would say that Dr. J.I. Packer and Bishop N.T. Wright are two leading theological lights in all Christendom.  Packer is more of a Protestant and Wright, more of an Anglo-Catholic -- but both are theological giants. 

But that in no way takes away from your basically spot-on assessment, Soulty.  In fact, it's because the AC is all over the map theologically that people like Packer and Wright have been forced to author such impressive tomes debunking nonsense like The Jesus Seminar and the tortured ramblings of John Dominic Crossan and Jack Spong.  (Crossan is not Anglican, per se.  He is an ex-Roman Catholic whose current affiliation is unknown to me.)

I also think the Church of England's hymnody is pretty close to being unparalleled, both musically and theologically.  But of course, Isaac Watts is long dead and the Wesleys eventually became Methodists.  ;-)

[JSojourner]

I disagree with Soulty a bit, on that Eucharistic doctrine is broader.

True.  In fact, in that sense, the Roman Catholic Church and Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod have more in common that the Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion.  The LCMS refuses Holy Communion to any non-Lutheran or even to Lutherans who do not believe in either transubstantiation or consubstantiation.

In the Anglican/Episcopal Church, the sacrament is given to any baptized Christian.  I find that most Anglicans believe in either transubstantiation or consubstantiation.  But not all.  My wife, for example, has an extremely Protestant, almost Baptist view of the sacrament.  I can't talk her out of it.  And I really don't try.  She's a much better Christian than I am!

I like, however, that she is welcome to come to the table with me.  I could never refuse communion to any person who has trusted Christ as their Savior. At the same time, I recognize that my Roman Catholic and LCMS brothers and sisters (and Orthodox folks, too) do not refuse communion out of a sense of superiority or exclusivity.  They do so out of sincere concern for the souls of the communicants.  I respect that.

[JSojourner]

Hey I took communion by invitation in an Episcopal Church (at a funeral), and the priest said nothing about the Baptized Christian condition precedent thing, so this un-Baptized Pagan went right up. The folks sitting near me asked why, and I replied, because I can! And there you have it.   Yet another reason why I am headed to the pit.

The canons say "All baptised Christians are welcome to receive the bread and wine, or just the bread as is their need or custom.  Those who do not wish to receive the sacrament or who cannot, may cross their arms and receive a blessing from the celebrant".

However, not all parishes police or observe that.  And, I suspect even in the Roman Catholic Church (Soulty could confirm or correct this), there is no way of knowing the spiritual status of every person who goes forward.  I am sure a lot of communion is given to those technically ineligible.  I do know that in most Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod congregations, they will ask for proof that you are a member if they don't know you.  And they will deny the sacrament, even to baptised Christians.

That said Torie, I believe ultimately, the matter is between you and God.  And if I were in charge of sending people to the pit, you would not be among them.  I think I would probably send you to Cleveland instead....  <grin>

[JSojourner]

I can see it now.

Phil, what are you having for dinner?

Oh, I think I'm just going to snack on some unleveled wafers.

Eh, it's definitely more of an after dinner light snack.

Never mind.  I just blew you all out of the water in terms of sacrilegious thinking.  I just came back from mass and went to Starbucks, while I was leaving, I thought "Now it's time to wash Christ down with some good coffee."

Haha....I lol'd.

In a related note, I'm always continually surprised by how little emphasis other denominations place on Communion. Maybe that's just because the Catholic mass is built around receiving Communion.

For the longest time, I didn't even know if Protestants received communion, that's how little emphasis is placed on it.

Anyway, I hate to say this but Christ leaves a bad after taste in my mouth. Yeah, I just said that. By the time I get out of mass, I have this stale after taste. I usually wash it down as soon as I get home.

A few comments in response to all the fun and interesting posts on communion.  And then, a story you will love -- especially if you regard the sacrament as a beautiful and moving experience.

First, let it never be said that Jesus doesn't have a sense of humor...even about himself.  No, I don't have a specific verse of Scripture to defend that belief.  But seriously -- could a guy who created (however he did it) a chimp NOT have a sense of humor?  Could a guy who usually chose the most unlikely turkeys to be his followers NOT have a sense of irony?  I think God loves to laugh.  Most often, at me.  Like when my prayers turn into me telling Him how He should do things.  I then hear Him say, "Thank you for your wise counsel.  What would I do without you?"  And we both have a good laugh.  I digress.

Second, almost all Protestants DO take communion.  All Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians and some AME Churches regard the sacrament as either the literal body and blood of Christ...or the literal power and presence of Christ.  Many Protestant denominations (Methodists, Wesleyans, Pentecostals) leave it to the individual communicant to decide for himself.  Some -- particularly the hardcore Reformed churches -- reject any notion of communion as anything but a symbol.  

I attended Baptist and Christian & Missionary Alliance Churches in my youth and they had communion on the first Sunday of every month, like clockwork.  In college, I attended some non-denominational churches and some Charismatic/Pentecostal Churches.  They almost never had communion.  In Fort Wayne, we ended up at the Church of God - General Conference (Findlay, Ohio) -- not to be confused with the Pentecostal Church of God or the Church of God, Anderson, Indiana.  They had communion once per quarter.  And that drove me to the Episcopal Church.  I came to believe at least weekly was best for me.  Though I would take it daily if I could.  At the end of the day, one must receive it if one is a Christian.  How, when and where is between you and God.

Now, my story.  My mother and father never took communion. They were afraid to because they believed themselves unworthy.  After I became a Christian, that grieved me, because I felt they didn't understand that grace is a free gift -- it's not about OUR worthiness.  It's about Christ's.

Then Dad has a stroke.  As a result, he becomes uncharacteristically childish.  Many of his adult inhibitions were gone or tamped down.  He would, for example, go right up to a child in a store and say, "Hi baby!  You're beautiful.  I love babies."  Before the stroke, Dad knew that people might be afraid of that and feel threatened.  After the stroke, all he knew how to do was live in the moment and love.  Before the stroke, he would bristle and recoil when I tried to kiss him.  Because sons don't kiss their fathers.  (I rejected that and now that he's gone, I am so glad I did!)  But after the stroke, he would hug me and kiss me and say all the things he never could before.  So...you get the idea.

Now it's time for communion.  The plate is passed (Protestant church) and instead of guiltily letting it pass by because he's unworthy, Dad grabs a handful of the tiny, little pieces of bread and downs them like candy.  My mother is utterly mortified.  People nearby gasp.  And Dad just munches.

So what?  Did Dad think, like a younger child might, "Oh, snack time!"  Perhaps.  Or did he think, possibly like an older child with some reasoning ability but not much, "Hey!  Free grace!!! Cool!!"

I don't know for sure, but I like the mental picture of the latter.  I told my priest that story and he just cried.  Because that's how Jesus would have us approach him.  Not greedily, but needily.  Like Peter said, "Wash not only my feet, but my head and hands and all of me..."

[JSojourner]

I think you, like many people, are confused about the Reformed position on the Lord's Supper. Many people believe we take the Zwinglian view that the bread and wine are only symbolic, but actually we take a middle ground view that while Christ is present in the Supper, He is not present in the bread and wine as themselves but present spiritually. To quote the Westminster Confession:

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Bono, I knew that -- but I should have clarified what I meant by Reformed.  There are all kinds of churches that claim to come from the Reformed tradition, but you're right -- the Presbyterians in particular (of all stripes) do believe in a spiritual presence.  Some theologians in the United Church of Christ do as well.  I cannot speak to the Reformed Church in America, the Christian Reformed Church or the various Brethren and Peace Churches.

Most Baptists, Grace Brethren and Evangelical Free Churches are pretty solidly "symbolic only" folks.  I also don't know where the Covenant Church stands, but I suspect it would be closer to what you have outlined.

Thanks so much for the great catch.

[JSojourner]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!  This is great!!!!

[JSojourner]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!  This is great!!!!

I can't figure out if that's sarcasm or not. *scratches head*

No, I mean it Bono.  If there's one segment of Christendom I am not familiar enough with, it's the Christian Reformed and Reformed Church in America.  I'm pretty close to the PCUSA because I provide pulpit supply for some PCUSA churches, and I know the PCA because I've read a lot of their theologians and authors.  But the CRC and RCA are not as well known.  Your information helps!

[JSojourner]

Yet another reason why Methodism>all.  We let everyone take communion if they want, even heathens and nonbelievers!

Great waffers and Merlot... make sure there is enough for everyone.

We don't use wafers, because we're not Catholic, nor do we have alcohol, because officially speaking the Methodist Church is temperate

My point was that Methodists allow communion to everyone because their beliefs about what happens at communion aren't the same as those of Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans or Anglicans.

Uh, Lutherans also allow everyone communion (and DO NOT have the same view on it as Catholics.)

Actually BRTD, that is categorically untrue.

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (the more liberal and, I think, "sane" Lutheran denomination) allows all baptised Christians to receive communion.  They believe that the communion elements contain the spiritual presence and power of Jesus Christ when the words of institution (the epiclesis) are pronounced.

But the ELCA, while the largest, is by no means the only Lutheran body in the world.

The Missouri-Synod Lutherans practice closed communion.  It is open only to other Lutherans.  And in some Missoury Synod districts, it is open only to other Missouri Synod Lutherans.  The also take the view of the elements that the ELCA hold to.

The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans practice a very closed communion, open only to other members of the Wisconsin Synod LC.  No one else may receive.

[JSojourner]

And JSojourner, yeah I know. I actually am an ELCA Lutheran. I know about the other branches, but do not remotely care about them.

I gotcha.  We're heavily MoSyn here in Fort Wayne because we have a Seminary.  And they do run the gamut from moderate to ultra-fundamentalist.  They had some liberals awhile ago but they were run out of town on a rail.

My daughter attends a MoSyn elementary school and on the whole, they've been wonderful to her.  Even though she is not one of the "chosen".  But she would not be allowed to received communion, even though she is a baptised Christian. 

Glad you are ELCA.  That's probably what I would be if the Episcopal Church didn't exist. In fact, though it doesn't happen often, we do share clergy at times.