Skeptical Climate Scientists Coming In From the Cold (user search)
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  Skeptical Climate Scientists Coming In From the Cold (search mode)
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Author Topic: Skeptical Climate Scientists Coming In From the Cold  (Read 1746 times)
Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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« on: January 01, 2017, 01:30:32 PM »

This issue sure brings out steady, logical arguments from everyone involved!

"I'm rich and I'll retire at 40 and do something about climate change because the world wont be habitable otherwise!  What??  I would back up that ridiculous, alarmist, chicken little position but you're probably not even educated!"

Yes SamTilden...Anthropogenic human induced catastrophic unprecidented global warming/climate change/climate weirding is accepted by everybody!  In fact there are almost no deniers so thats why the issue wasn't brought up in the campaign.  I'm not sure how that works but I'm sure it's because Americans are too stupid to be wealthy and able to retire at 40 and be Ivy League Educated!  Surely they'd know then! (They wouldnt tell you though because you're not educated or rich enough to even explain how its all worse than we thought)

I think global warming science defenders doth protest too much and it betrays a deep, fundamental insecurity about their beliefs on the issue.  
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snowguy716
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2017, 07:32:30 PM »

Yes SamTilden...Anthropogenic human induced catastrophic unprecidented global warming/climate change/climate weirding is accepted by everybody!  In fact there are almost no deniers so thats why the issue wasn't brought up in the campaign.  I'm not sure how that works but I'm sure it's because Americans are too stupid to be wealthy and able to retire at 40 and be Ivy League Educated!  Surely they'd know then! (They wouldnt tell you though because you're not educated or rich enough to even explain how its all worse than we thought)

I think global warming science defenders doth protest too much and it betrays a deep, fundamental insecurity about their beliefs on the issue.  

I didn't say there weren't deniers? You seem to be living proof, bud.

I'm not insecure, just frustrated that people won't pay attention and do what's necessary to protect the future. And when those people are in my party, it's even worse.

I can accept scientific findings about our climate.  I can accept that there is a greenhouse effect.  I can accept that humans are emitting large amounts of CO2 and that it is having an impact on our climate.

But with that I have to accept that there is a stochastic factor here.  We can analyze our weather and our climate until the cows come home... but we can't accurately predict it based on what we know because that's the very nature of a stochastic process.  I have to accept that our models are mere playthings that, while complex and big, really don't tell you anything more than what the game SimEarth could back in 1991.  I also have to accept that we have only scratched the surface.

I can accept these things while not accepting the increasingly toxic, desperate, emotional, unscientific, authortarian, and regressive brand of activism that dominates action on climate change.

The vast majority of papers that come out these days on climate change are utter garbage.  They're like those car commercials "drive a new Lexus today for only $599/mo with zero down at signing"... yeah, if you have perfect credit.  Like those car commercials, climate papers these days assume the worst case scenario.  The kinds of papers that prognosticate more backne and armed conflict and sad dogs and wetter farts are all doing so based on the least likely outcome as defined by the IPCC.  You know what they say about assume.. it makes an ass out of u and me.  Climate scientists won't get published if their paper assumes a moderate warming which, of course, leads to a moderate change... anymore than a commercial that promises a new Lexus at advertised leasing prices based on the average credit score will sell cars.

These papers and the issues they cover dominate climate change coverage. It is those kinds of papers, and then stories about how weather events have a "climate change fingerprint" based on bad assumptions and a good amount of handwaving and smoke and mirrors, that form the bulk of climate change coverage these days.  Meanwhile, the real data collection and proxy collection and papers dealing with actual global climate are only discussed in backwaters by those who are more informed.. and are increasingly done by non-western scientists who still have a modicum of professionalism.

Regarding the tactic of blaming weather on climate change.  Keep in mind that for years, as a skeptic, I had to put up with alarmists screaming that you can't use individual weather events to prove or disprove climate change.  It takes many many years, even decades, to find any discernible signal.  Yet Matthew was billed as THE WORST HURRICANE EVER and proof that climate change was knocking at our door... even though we had a record period without a major hurricane hit in the U.S. and no real trend in tropical storms globally... and that Matthew really was a run of the mill hurricane.

I think the best thing to do is this:  Be concerned about climate change.  But make the main focus of your environmental actions not climate change.  Tackle deforestation.  Tackle improper forest and grassland management.  Tackle unsustainable water or resource usage.  Champion more efficient uses of energy.

If you make climate change the crux of every environmental argument... you're gonna lose sight of what's important and everyone else is gonna ignore you.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2017, 07:14:37 PM »

Snowguy716: Your whole argument is based on one thing: you doubt the legitimacy of climate science. And unless you can provide evidence, your claims don't deserve to be taken seriously. You're a denier.

You say that "moderate" climate change papers are dismissed and discredited, however, no evidence is provided. I'd be more than happy to examine what you have to show. All available, credible evidence that I have seen shows that we are heading for above 2C warming, with possibly much more to come ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2014/02/1402277-global-warming-2-degree-target/).

The other part of your argument seems to be that climate change isn't sexy or it is a detriment to other environmental causes. Bruh, Climate Change is a banner that is tying together environmental movements on a worldwide scale like we've never seen before. It's the Genghis Khan of environmental movements. So I don't get where that idea comes from. Look at what just happened in North Dakota.
Skeptical Science is probably not the most credible source from which to base your arguments Runeghost.  But it's par for the course. 

So I'll post from a skeptic's blog.  But it's okay.  Instead of focusing on how to use handwaving and debate tactics to "shut down" your "denier opponent"... this one simply lists 500 papers related to climate change published in 2016 in scholarly journals that are skeptical of climate change alarm.

They have broken it down into 3 pages because 500 is quite a lot.  They include the abstracts.

http://notrickszone.com/skeptic-papers-2016-1/#sthash.TEHhpG7I.dpbs

http://notrickszone.com/skeptic-papers-2016-2/#sthash.3pMvK0Ps.dpbs

http://notrickszone.com/skeptic-papers-2016-3/#sthash.JBtfPm0f.dpbs


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snowguy716
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« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 03:52:36 PM »

So my issue with all of this data is that it doesn't present a unifying reason why the consensus is false. Any cause is acceptable as long as it disagrees with the hypothesis that human emitted Co2 is causing climate change. Let's take a look at a few of the headlines from the section:

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So, what is causing the warming? Is it other planets? Is it Geomagnetic? Cloud Cover? Richard Nixon?

As a counter, here is a paper that analyzed 11,944 papers on the topic, and concluded that 90+ percent confirm the idea of anthropogenic Global Warming. (http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/048002).

Now, let's take out Occam's razor. What's more likely to be correct: A smaller coalition of denying papers, with many different explanations that contradict each other, or a much larger group that all centers on one conclusion?
The consensus isn't necessarily false.  But the consensus position is quite vague: that at least half the warming since 1950 has been caused by human emissions of greenhouse gases and other human activities.

Many of the papers I linked to are exploring the other 50% and seek to nail down the human component more accurately by more completely understanding how the climate works through real world proxies and observations with a reluctant focus on global climate models.  Others are positing alternative theories, which should not be discounted as long as they are following the scientific process.

Thanks to media hype and the general inability for most people to properly understand complicated science they are not particularly interested in, there is a commonly held misconception that ALL warming since the industrial revolution was caused by humans and that predictions are actually much worse than they are, based on the highest authority in climate change science (the IPCC).

There is a contingent of high level climate scientists that believe that to be the case as well.  Others share a much more skeptical and conservative view...that the human component was a minority of warming in the 20th century, but does show a bigger proportion through time.  I think, in my limited capacity as a layman, that these scientists have a more robust knowledge of the climate without the ideological hangups that climate scientists like Michael Mann or other laymen like Bill McKibben have.

The point is to have an all of the above approach.  There is no one driver of climate or its changes.  There are countless ones that constantly change.  Greenhouse gases are an important one...but are just one part.  The changes in solar activity during the 20th century were also very significant in human history.  And through further study, we are learning that solar changes impact climate more than, but also completely differently than the IPCC or the models assume.  Complex relationships between ozone, clouds, and ocean cycles with changes in UV radiation, which varies much more than overall solar irradiance changes, contribute to warming and cooling as well as regional climate change.  The models assume a basic "solar constant" that has an almost immeasurable effect on global temperature change. They need to be updated...but that might reduce the expected amount of warming...so instead such science is criticized and dismissed.  This is the kinda thing I have an issue with.

One can also explain, as the cited paper does, warming by blaming it on a reduction of cloud cover.  Of course this might involve assumptions that the consensus rejects...but the global climate models don't accurately deal with clouds...so it is not easy to counter the cloud argument.  Instead, such papers are dismissed. 

In 2008, for example, the global temperature went down quite a bit from previous years...and the deepest solar minimum in a century and an increase in global cloud cover are the likely culprits, along with a La Niņa.

When skeptics started screaming about the sudden slowdown of warming after 2000, rather than investigate...first, the slowdown was simply denied.  Then there was panic and all kinds of straws were grasped...it's La Niņa!  The heat is being sequestered into the deep where we cant measure it!  Then they just subjected the temperature record to new adjustments, known as the "pause buster"...which increased the warming trend since the 90s by arbitrarily making the late 90s cooler and recent times warmer.  Now the pause is treated as if it never happened.

You can argue such adjustments are legitimate...but something like 3/4 of adjustments increase the warming trend.  And these adjustments are done frequently.  The early 20th century is much cooler today than it was 20 years ago. 

I also have a problem accepting papers that claim global warming must be caused by increased GHGs because "the models couldn't produce the amount of warming unless we add the human component."  This becomes moot if your assumptions about non human components don't change with the introduction of new evidence. 

This ideological drive to only accept one answer leads to increasingly random and incorrect predictions...like that hurricanes, snowstorms, and El Niņo could become both more or less frequent and both more or less intense due to human made climate change.

The argument that "my side has way more papers" falls short if you have the system set up to encourage your side and discourage the other.  And I wont accuse you of this...but look at Runeghosts response to me.  That attitude is very common with this issue and serves as proof that ideology, belief, fear, and emotion are in control...and no matter what, those things are always poisonous to science.
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2017, 10:34:30 PM »

Thanks to media hype and the general inability for most people to properly understand complicated science they are not particularly interested in, there is a commonly held misconception that ALL warming since the industrial revolution was caused by humans [...]
This is perhaps the most galling tactic of climate changing deniers.  It's akin to arguing that because not all lung cancer is caused by tobacco use, nothing should be done about cigarettes.

To be fair, sometimes those who accept the fact that anthropogenic warming is real and significant don't always take into account the economics of what should be done in response, but at this point to argue that we should do nothing to curb anthropogenic warming because the science is inconclusive is ridiculous and short-sighted.
What seems to be the biggest feature of climate change science and the toxic "debate" surrounding it is people filling other peoples' mouths with words.

Where, pray tell, did I say nothing should be done to curb anthropogenic warming?

Put in place a carbon tax!  My carbon footprint is very small for an American.  The true believers that berate me for my "denialism" but brag about how many times they fly each year and where they go will pay for it... not me.
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