Did that thread about a woman's atlas get deleted?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Gustaf, what sort of sexual harassment laws do you guys have in Sweden? The comment "good thing I can't stay mad at you with those eyes and that ass" would lead to an instant lawsuit here in America. These things may be said in private between men, but never to a woman's face.

I was gonna say.  A comment like that would land you in some deep sh**t, and rightfully so.  It's tantamount to saying "it's a good thing I don't have any rope, cuz that tree has your name on it right about now, boy" to a black guy.

And I'm sorry Gustaf, but just from the last few posts in your argument with Memphis, I don't think what Memphis is saying is nearly so bad as you're making it out.

Women are women.  As a group of people, they have strengths and weaknesses.  One of their strengths has been to put up with mens' bullsh**t for a very very long time and not go on an all out murder spree in response.  You now see women dominating college campuses, earning more degrees than men, doing better in school, and getting a lot of the good jobs.  They also have faster rising incomes than men (granted, they are lower than mens' as well).

Of course sexism still is a problem in all western nations.  In some areas, it is still entrenched.  In others, it is largely absent, and still in others, there is discrimination against men (nursing, teaching being the biggest examples).  I think most people recognize the unequal roles women were stuffed into in the past.  I think now the focus needs to shift to gender equality in general (both men and women), and eventually, with enough awareness, the issue becomes moot.

Right now we need to have a conversation about boys falling behind in school and not doing as well later in life.  Some people, like Hillary Clinton, who is hardly a chauvinist, recognize this and have brought this issue up.

But eventually it needs to be about "what do you want to do."  There will always be deficits of women in some fields as there will be deficits of men in others.  The point is to ensure that those imbalances are not intentional on an institutional level, but instead reflect the desires of men and women seeking to achieve their goals in life.  (Which is why I strongly oppose a 50/50 balance in parliament, for example.  But it is maybe necessary as an intermediate step.)

[Ban my account ffs!]

But eventually it needs to be about "what do you want to do."  There will always be deficits of women in some fields as there will be deficits of men in others.  The point is to ensure that those imbalances are not intentional on an institutional level, but instead reflect the desires of men and women seeking to achieve their goals in life.  (Which is why I strongly oppose a 50/50 balance in parliament, for example.  But it is maybe necessary as an intermediate step.)

I think my point, as well as that of Gustaf, Nathan and others, is to remind that barriers that prevent you from doing what you want to do are not always explicit or visible. They don't generally work in the form of "we don't want women here". It's a much more subtle process, that starts from the early childhood, and slowly encourages men and women to adopt different attitudes, develop different skills, follow different paths, etc. It's not enough to say "now women must not be excluded from certain professions". Because if the general assumptions of the employer and the coworkers are still influenced by gender stereotypes, a woman still has little chance to succeed in certain fields. And furthermore, women are even discouraged from seeking certain careers in the first place, at the level of primary or secondary education already.

It's also worth noting that this form of subtle discrimination exists for men as well, though it's limited to only a few categories like nursing, which do not convey much social consideration.

But the point is, eliminating obvious forms of discrimination is not enough. You have to go deeper and reshape mentalities outright.

Yes.  But you must recognize that men and women are different.  Memphis is correct in bringing up that there is a biological difference.  As long as there are strength requirements for firefighters, men will dominate the field.  You can call this reinforcing gender roles if youw ant, but I don't think it is.

Men and women will likely always tend to gravitate towards different roles in society.  That is because men and women are wired differently and are also physically different.  To ignore that in pursuit of some forced 50/50 equality does nothing but create an imbalance from the natural order of things.

Now of course any active discrimination needs to stop.  Men should be able to fill traditionally female roles and vice versa... but being 100% gender neutral as a society will never happen.. because almost nobody is gender neutral themselves.

Instead, removing as much societal pressure as possible on various roles and making those roles the choice of the individual is the goal.  But I still think even if we achieve that, women will still fill many of the traditional roles that we've come to think as "normal".