SENATE BILL: Regional Legislative Petitions Act (law'd) (user search)
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  SENATE BILL: Regional Legislative Petitions Act (law'd) (search mode)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Regional Legislative Petitions Act (law'd)  (Read 6007 times)
Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« on: December 10, 2011, 11:35:19 PM »

This bill is nothing but mindless busywork taking up a slot.  It will not benefit Atlasia in any way and it will not increase citizen involvement. 

It will just add easily forgettable legislation to the rolls and will never be used.  Not when any citizen can approach any at large senator or their regional senator to have their proposal introduced into the senate.

I could understand if you were restricted to only petitioning your regional senator and they said no to introducing the bill, but it had significant popular support... but that simply isn't the case.

I am tempted to veto this bill simply because it is a waste of time.

Marokai:  I'm sure you're not gonna be happy to read this at all.  I understand you are trying as much as possible to get people more involved in the game.  I just don't think this bill will do it.
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snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2011, 11:50:28 PM »

Last I checked, Atlasia is a representative republic.  You elect senators to represent you... not to enact the will of a coordinated 25% of one region.

On those grounds alone, this bill is a bad idea.  No senator should ever be forced to propose anything he doesn't want to.  If the people have a problem with that, it is their responsibility to elect a different senator.  Or they can go to a different senator with their proposal.

WHen I was a senator, I never turned down a constituent that asked to propose a bill on their behalf.  I think I was asked 2 times.

The only way you're going to really get the citizens involved in the process is by making such activity compulsory.  And that ain't gonna happen... and proposing bills like this in the meantime won't make it any better.  It just wastes a valuable senate slot when there are many other bills in the queue.

I will be doing my goddamn job when I send this bill back to you.  For your bill's sake, I hope you can do your goddamn job and get a super majority to back you on it.
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snowguy716
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 12:27:41 AM »

When half of the Senate is as fickle as they are, I'd say I have my "goddamn job" stacked against me.

Your argument is hilarious though. It'll be a huge waste of time that takes up so much space in the Senate! That.. no one will ever use?

I don't understand this weird hostility to purely expansionary and peripheral proposals like this. And the amount of times one of my or someone elses' proposals was fine, fine, fine, up until the final vote, then OH MY GOD IT WILL DESTROY THE GAME. I haven't been in office for two months yet and this has already become an insane and clear pattern.

Why don't we just line up all my proposals in some domino line so you can all vote them down all at the same time and we can move on? Then maybe a couple months later you can propose them as your own ideas and call yourselves the real reformers.

I don't subscribe to the philosophy of "let's legislate it because hey.. it can't hurt!" which is the basis of your entire argument here.  My argument is that it is a waste of time, it takes up a slot, preventing more pressing matters from being discussed in the senate, and that if it is passed, it will do nothing to improve citizen involvement.  That can be reasonably extrapolated from the language of the bill... no time travel is necessary.

If you want to act like a martyr and a victim and pretend I'm out to get you, go ahead.  It will only reflect poorly on you and you won't accomplish anything you want to.

But I'd suggest rather than jumping to conclusions, you take my criticism of this bill for what it is:  Criticism of this bill.  I'm not going to blanket veto all of your bills.  And I won't do it to spite you.  I will only do it if I think it is a bad bill or it needs to be reworked.
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snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2011, 08:44:42 PM »

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

I'm sorry, but introducing 30 bills that have to be completely rewritten in order to be compatible with existing law does not make for an active senate.  It just makes for a senate that gets frustrated and burnt out because they have nothing to do but busywork.  Other senators shouldn't have to correct mistakes in your bills for you.

You and Duke already made comments bitching about my "inactivity" and how great it would have been if he had won the presidency so he could rubber stamp your legislative agenda.  It would have been a disaster because you have shown no willingness to fix your proposed bills when glaring mistakes are pointed out... instead lecturing everybody else about how active a senator YOU are and how awful everybody else is.

To bgwah and Kalwejt:  Send this bill to me if you wish.  This waste of time will not have my signature.  You can't legislate grass roots... if you try to, it becomes a top-down affair and you end up with the Tea Party.
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snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2011, 11:08:20 PM »

I don't understand how you got "This Senate is awesome because of me!" out of "People on the regional level feel disconnected, and we can give them more reason to be involved."

Hmm I don't know do you want to explain that last sentence I quoted because it seems to say that other than this session the Senate could use plenty of reasons to legislate more. So what changed for this session from last session?

The last session kicked things in gear, but the session before that, for several sessions, was a wasteland of legislative accomplishment. Also: more legislation = more Senate activity. Connect the other dots however you like but I fail to see how you could possibly interpret me arguing in favor of engaging the citizens more directly on legislative issues as me taking credit for Senate activity. Turn the hostility down to about a 4 or so.

The difference is that I am the best PPT ever!! Grin
To be fair to NCY, I think he did a damn fine job considering he has dial-up internet and an aging computer.
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2011, 04:02:00 AM »

Veto this if you want to, Snowguy. But it's goddamn petty of you to do so for a bill that is so uncontroversial and so peripheral and so optional. The way which you and Napoleon treat these things with such a fire and brimstone attitude is a hilarious overreaction.

The idea that I'm stubborn to changes on my bills is also objectively untrue. It is a lie. It is nothing but a lie. Look at everything I've proposed here that we've debated so far. I have compromised and accepted amendments on nearly all of them!

The empowerment Amendment, specifically, was rewritten by Duke and I to suit Napoleon! I offered to accept Bgwah's compromises on that bill. On the shell corporations act, I accepted compromises from Yankee. On the wage bill, that Bgwah wrote, I stood in the way of no amendments to it. On the national initiative system, I accepted Bgwah's compromised terms for getting something on the ballot. The caucus Act that we passed, passed because I accepted Bgwah's revisions. On the ratification regionalization Amendment, I accepted Yankee's amendment to slightly restrict options to the regions, even if I didn't want to do that myself.

When people opposed my ideas, I reached out to them in asking if there was any way I could get their votes. Several times, I would get a response that says "No, under no circumstances will I vote for this." Who, exactly is stubborn here? Perhaps you don't know. Perhaps it's because you don't hang around these parts very much. But spreading obvious, checkable falsehoods is over the line.
Regarding the wage bill, I discussed it with bgwah and mentioned that I wanted a tiered system of overtime pay and an exemption for small businesses.  I didn't think he had introduced the bill yet, so I was a bit flummoxed when Zuwo started asking if people would support the bill.  I was a bit mad at bgwah for jumping the gun before we had it ironed out... so he put the bill on the floor using his legislative slot so we could get it amended.  As I can't amend the bill myself, Bgwah did it for me.

If you're so eager to please everybody and get your bills passed, then I suggest you propose amendments to your healthcare cost reduction bill so it doesn't conflict with current law... and that you re-write the postal reform bill.. since you're so quick to accuse me of vetoing it so I could rewrite it and take credit for "reform".

I couldn't even mention the problems with your healthcare cost reduction bill without you having to throw in some big long spiel that basically had you huffing and wagging your finger and lauding yourself for actually having the fortitude to even discuss cost reductions...

Then you fire back at me with what is a rich example of excessive hyperbole.. and accuse me, again, of being inactive in your usual disguised, off hand, bitchy little way.  It's incredibly tiring.  But go ahead.. keep firing until you self-destruct.
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snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2011, 08:18:33 PM »

Snowguy, if you really want to start more active period of your, until now pretty unimpressive, presidency by vetoing a harmless but potentially useful bill and facing quite possible overturn, be our guest. I think you are wasting your political capital that can be used in better way.
Yeah, because your time in the senate has been super impressive...

Living wage law:  You had nothing to say except to vote on the amendment and vote for passage of the bill.  I had plenty to say on that bill, making my case to the senate to lower the age from 21 to 18.  I made my position clear soon after the bill was introduced.

Your key piece of legislation in the senate thus far?

National ilikeverin day.  Enough said about that.

Caucus infrastructure bill:  You had about 4 or 5 sentences in the whole 9 page debate... and one of your posts was simply telling Marokai and Napoleon to shut up.  I only made one post in that thread, saying I supported the idea of caucuses but saying they shouldn't have any legal authority (as in, are not official parties).

Regional Ratification amendment:  You had a few decent posts in there.  I'll give you that one.  It's an amendment.. so I had no say in the matter whatsoever.

Another hallmark bill sponsored by Kalwejt:  Bringing back the death penalty for people who spell words backwards!  The bill was quickly tabled.

Postal reform bill:  You had nothing to say in the debate.  You didn't even vote on the bill.  I didn't say anything in the bill because I planned to support it.  Then after the final vote had begun, Shua came with information showing that the current language wasn't sufficient.. so I vetoed the bill.  Since then, nothing has happened with that bill.  The original sponsors have thrown up their hands and decided not to take it any further, instead wishing the postal service to "just go broke".

Healthcare cost reduction bill:  You've said nothing in the debate on that bill and you've offered no amendments when amendments are clearly needed to make the bill right and effective.  I think I've made my case pretty damn well with that bill.

Bacon Cheeseburger bill:  You've made one comment in that thread about fighting the fast food lobby.  I also posted in that thread.

Empowering regions bill:  You were active in that debate... but you were arguing that it was a waste of time... something you're attacking me on in this thread.

Working hours reduction bill:  You didn't participate in the debate... you simply cast your vote.

You've said nothing in the caucus reform amendment bill.

You've said nothing and haven't voted on the Shell Corporation banning act.

And in this thread, you've made one comment on the bill at hand, and have spent the rest of the time screaming at Napoleon for something unrelated and at me for thinking this bill is pointless busywork.

So, frankly, your time in the senate has been unimpressive.  You haven't actively participated in the debate on a large number of bills and have failed to vote in a couple.

This blatant hypocrisy on your part makes me resent you since you are willing to throw me under the bus by calling me unimpressive and 'inactive', when that has not been the case... all while being fairly inactive yourself.

THe first two weeks of my presidency were inactive.  There was very little to do because bills were not being passed by the senate.  Sure.. I could've issued a round of press releases for you to read.. but I didn't.  And I'll take responsibility for not communicating my agenda or making sure my cabinet are doing their jobs.  But don't expect me to take criticism from you of all people on this subject lying down.



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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 02:19:02 AM »

I demand you all hug and make up. Tongue
I hope we can hug and make up too... but I think what I wrote was fair considering his criticism of me.

Kalwejt has been one of my strongest allies and friends on Atlas and in this game... so his criticism stings all the more... and in this case I felt justified to sting back.  Let's just hope he doesn't go into anaphylactic shock over it (did I take the metaphor too far?)
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 02:21:21 AM »

Oh, and I"ll sign the Goddamn bill, because I wanna be goddamn done with it.  Goddamn?  Goddamn.
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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Posts: 22,632
Austria


« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 02:31:37 AM »

x Snowguy716
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