Should Ukraine join NATO?

[Ferguson97]

Yes (sane). Russia should not dictate who can and cannot join NATO.

[Ferguson97]

Absolutely not, Russia is a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence, Russia would not accept this deal nor should they.

Why should Russia get to decide if an independent country gets to join NATO?

[Ferguson97]

Absolutely not, Russia is a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence, Russia would not accept this deal nor should they.

Why should Russia get to decide if an independent country gets to join NATO?

Because NATO isn't the Red Cross. Russia is objectively correct to be concerned about a hostile military alliance covering nearly all of Russia's European borders. Russia was invaded twice in the last hundred years by nations to the west, Russia obviously wants a buffer region to protect ethnic Russians on the Russian hinterlands and against NATO's red-lines.

That is not a sufficient argument. The idea that NATO admitting Ukraine would be an act of hostility is ridiculous. It’s entire purpose is to DEFEND other countries from invasion. Russia would have nothing to worry about as long as they did not invade Ukraine.

I really did not think I’d see you defend imperialism.

[Ferguson97]

That is not a sufficient argument. The idea that NATO admitting Ukraine would be an act of hostility is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous if you know your history. NATO was specifically set up as an alliance of Western European and North American countries with primarily the U.S. interest in control to oppose Russian expansion and Communism. Then, after Russia lost the Cold War, NATO captured much of the Warsaw Pact's former territory at the latter's expense, and now they are on Russian borders and want now to incorporate a country historically in the Russian heartland and home to millions of Russian-speaking people. This will obviously be perceived as an act of aggression against Russia, any reasonable country would interpret it as an act of aggression if their geopolitical adversary was doing that to them.

This makes sense if the US was invading Ukraine or forcing them into NATO against their will. But Ukraine wants to join NATO. “It would make Russia sad” is not an argument that an American should be making. And those are very similar arguments to how Russia is justifying their invasion.

It’s entire purpose is to DEFEND other countries from invasion. Russia would have nothing to worry about as long as they did not invade Ukraine.

And The West would have nothing to worry about if they hadn't been meddling in the Ukraine and sending millions of dollars there to try and align Ukraine with The West instead of being aligned with Russia for the past twenty years.

UKRAINE DOES NOT WANT TO BE ALIGNED WITH RUSSIA.

I really did not think I’d see you defend imperialism.

I don't, which is why I don't side with NATO.

Imperialism is when you defend countries from invasion. I am very intelligent.

Don’t be coy. You are defending RUSSIAN imperialism.

[Ferguson97]

The problem with NATO is that it should have been disbanded in 1991 (or earlier actually, given that the Cold War was functionally over by 1989 at the latest). Whilst the text of the founding treaty is open ended and open to interpretation (as international treaties of that type tend to be), the obvious unspoken (well, often spoken) purpose of NATO was to contain an ideologically expansionist Soviet Union within its post-war sphere of influence. The need for that ceased thirty years ago.

Well evidently this is not the case considering Russia’s recent actions

[Ferguson97]

Absolutely not, Russia is a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence, Russia would not accept this deal nor should they.

The cool and leftist thing to do is support nuclear powers having spheres of influence.

That's the world we live in. I'm not a liberal internationalist, I'm a realist. The fact of the matter is that nuclear powers do have spheres of influence (the USA's apparently extends to the whole world) and they would not tolerate such a threat to their national security and a NATO-aligned Ukraine leaves Russia with no buffer zone in Eastern Europe.

If you were actually a realist, you wouldn’t oppose NATO.

[Ferguson97]

Absolutely not, Russia is a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence, Russia would not accept this deal nor should they.

The cool and leftist thing to do is support nuclear powers having spheres of influence.

That's the world we live in. I'm not a liberal internationalist, I'm a realist. The fact of the matter is that nuclear powers do have spheres of influence (the USA's apparently extends to the whole world) and they would not tolerate such a threat to their national security and a NATO-aligned Ukraine leaves Russia with no buffer zone in Eastern Europe.

If you were actually a realist, you wouldn’t oppose NATO.

I oppose NATO expansion on realist grounds. I am in principle opposed to all military alliances, but NATO is protected under international law and isn't going anywhere. Therefore my efforts are on containing NATO to its present sphere, and Russia their sphere, in order to preserve the balance of power.

There is no opposition to NATO expansion that operates under a realist philosophy, unless your allegiance is to Russia.

[Ferguson97]

Absolutely not, Russia is a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence, Russia would not accept this deal nor should they.

The cool and leftist thing to do is support nuclear powers having spheres of influence.

That's the world we live in. I'm not a liberal internationalist, I'm a realist. The fact of the matter is that nuclear powers do have spheres of influence (the USA's apparently extends to the whole world) and they would not tolerate such a threat to their national security and a NATO-aligned Ukraine leaves Russia with no buffer zone in Eastern Europe.

If you were actually a realist, you wouldn’t oppose NATO.

I oppose NATO expansion on realist grounds. I am in principle opposed to all military alliances, but NATO is protected under international law and isn't going anywhere. Therefore my efforts are on containing NATO to its present sphere, and Russia their sphere, in order to preserve the balance of power.

There is no opposition to NATO expansion that operates under a realist philosophy, unless your allegiance is to Russia.

NATO expansion is not an open-and-shut case. Reasoned realist arguments can be made for and against it.

Not really. The basic idea of realism is that nations will act in their self-interest above all else.

It is in the self-interest of most nations to join NATO, since its existence serves as a deterrent against non-members attacking member states.

[Ferguson97]

Absolutely not, Russia is a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence, Russia would not accept this deal nor should they.

The cool and leftist thing to do is support nuclear powers having spheres of influence.

That's the world we live in. I'm not a liberal internationalist, I'm a realist. The fact of the matter is that nuclear powers do have spheres of influence (the USA's apparently extends to the whole world) and they would not tolerate such a threat to their national security and a NATO-aligned Ukraine leaves Russia with no buffer zone in Eastern Europe.

If you were actually a realist, you wouldn’t oppose NATO.

I oppose NATO expansion on realist grounds. I am in principle opposed to all military alliances, but NATO is protected under international law and isn't going anywhere. Therefore my efforts are on containing NATO to its present sphere, and Russia their sphere, in order to preserve the balance of power.

There is no opposition to NATO expansion that operates under a realist philosophy, unless your allegiance is to Russia.

NATO expansion is not an open-and-shut case. Reasoned realist arguments can be made for and against it.

Not really. The basic idea of realism is that nations will act in their self-interest above all else.

It is in the self-interest of most nations to join NATO, since its existence serves as a deterrent against non-members attacking member states.

That is unless you don't want to get pulled into a war similar to how WW1 started.

The larger NATO becomes, the less likely a World War is.