Does Corzine deserve to get re-elected?

[Conan]

The state is in much better financial shape than it was when he took over, probably the best financial shape its been in over a decade.

And on what basis do you make this claim? It can't be the sham budget that he proposed this year.

Sham budget??  He drastically cut the deficit without raising taxes by cutting wasteful spending.  Silly me for thinking thats the type of fiscal responsibility Republicans believed in.....

Uh, did you read the first post? Corzine is proposing a two billion dollar spending increase.

Stop being the stupid hack that you are for once.

That 2 billion dollar spending increase is the tax cut. durrrr

As for my position. He deserves to be reelected if:

1) Restructure state finances to ensure real property tax relief, not election year gimmicks.
2)There are ethics reforms, specifically toward the legislature.

Now, it seems this years budget included tax cut election year gimmicks. This is mostly the legislatures fault but the Gov must learn to effectively get what he wants from the legislature.
A lot of what he needs to accomplish is escaping me as of right now too. I have written about it here in the past, I will try to dig it up.

Here are some of his accomplishments:

Civil Unions, expect gay marriage within a year.
First budget in 6 years with no new taxes, tax increase
$2,300,000,000  in tax relief
20% reduction in property taxes in new budget
Ban on dual office holding
Strongest global warming bill in the country
Government transparency, "christmas tree" gifts (earmarks) available to view online
Stem Cell research referendum
Significant tax cut for low income families, described as "a double tax cut"

And that's just this year.

Government asset consolidation, sold off cars, froze hiring and purchasing of furniture and offices.
Reduced political appointees by half
Spending cuts like higher ed which caused some outrage
Budget surplus
a reduction of 1,300 non political employees
drops in unemployment
increases in personal incomes
increase in payroll employment
steady gross state product growth

Now let's look at your complaints

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The legislature was out of control and still is. Needed to close the budget hole.

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Interesting seeing how this is usually what conservative republicans try to do. Something tells me if he were a republican, you'd support it. It's one of many ideas to help state finances. Ultimately it won't happen.

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NJ is a small state and many New Jerseyans go to work everyday outside of the state. I'm having trouble accessing that NYtimes article, but I don't think it was one in five. Anyway, that hasn't stopped him from doing his job. Most of those trips were to NYC (girlfriend) or the Hamptons.

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Both you and I know there is no real issue here. He had a personal relationship where marriage was even talked about. When Corzine negotiated the labor contracts, Katz opposed them. Besides it would only be the other way around where there would be ethics questions. If a union leader gave the governor a few mill, then there'd be questions. What do you think he gave her money to get her unions to sign on to his contracts? It's not like he bought their endorsment, he'd get it over the republican anyway.

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Also happens to be balanced if I recall correctly.


Now the governor still has a lot to do. We will see if he keeps his major promise of real tax reform. I will have to see who the other candidate will be to say if he deserves to be reelected. If it's Chris Christie, then yes, Corzine has my endorsment already but that doesnt merit whether or not he deserves it. He's only 2 years into his governorship and will be governor till 2010, at least.

[Conan]

That 2 billion dollar spending increase is the tax cut. durrrr

What?

Oh, and Smash, New Jersey does NOT have a surplus. None. I don't know where you got that from. A recent AP article even went as far as to highlight the record surpluses of a record 48 states -- the only other state to not have a surplus is Louisana... and they have an excuse.

Maybe you should try reading the state budget.

What? Yea, the state budget.

"Overall spending is up 7.2 percent from
last year – or $2.2 billion. However, setting aside the
growth in property tax relief and the increases in
school and municipal aid, spending is up a mere 2
percent, year over year. Let me repeat – less than two
percent."
So non-aid spending is up 2 percent, or $600 million.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/us/11legislature.html?hp

[Conan]

Here are some of his accomplishments:

Civil Unions, expect gay marriage within a year.
First budget in 6 years with no new taxes, tax increase
$2,300,000,000  in tax relief
20% reduction in property taxes in new budget
Ban on dual office holding
Strongest global warming bill in the country
Government transparency, "christmas tree" gifts (earmarks) available to view online
Stem Cell research referendum
Significant tax cut for low income families, described as "a double tax cut"

The ones in bold are certainly not accomplishments by my standards.  Aside from, the dual office ban has not taken effect, my property taxes are going up 24%, so really he does nothing according to your list

The ones in bold also happen to be supported by the overwhelming majority of New Jerseyans except for gay marriage which is just a majority. Those are only for this year so far. Also the ban on dual office holding was just signed into law or will be before the 30th. As for your property taxes, I doubt they went up 24% and you should expect your tax cut soon.
Since 1996, my property taxes have gone up by 50%, which is ridiculous. So I doubt yours have gone up by 24% in just one year.

[Conan]

Here are some of his accomplishments:

Civil Unions, expect gay marriage within a year.
First budget in 6 years with no new taxes, tax increase
$2,300,000,000  in tax relief
20% reduction in property taxes in new budget
Ban on dual office holding
Strongest global warming bill in the country
Government transparency, "christmas tree" gifts (earmarks) available to view online
Stem Cell research referendum
Significant tax cut for low income families, described as "a double tax cut"

The ones in bold are certainly not accomplishments by my standards.  Aside from, the dual office ban has not taken effect, my property taxes are going up 24%, so really he does nothing according to your list

The ones in bold also happen to be supported by the overwhelming majority of New Jerseyans except for gay marriage which is just a majority. Those are only for this year so far. Also the ban on dual office holding was just signed into law or will be before the 30th. As for your property taxes, I doubt they went up 24% and you should expect your tax cut soon.
Since 1996, my property taxes have gone up by 50%, which is ridiculous. So I doubt yours have gone up by 24% in just one year.

I strongly advise you ask someone you know that lives in this area, because my taxes are going up 24%, although I doubt there is an article about it online.

Are they going up 24% or have they gone up 24%? Sounds like its only a local town issue. Besides, youre still going to get around $1000 off. So there, he is minimizing your 24% increase.

of course not.

This is coming from a republican who supports Chris Dodd, Mike Bloomberg and Hillary Clinton. You are just utterly confused.

I don't think Corzine going to win reelection as you everyone knows both Virgina and New Jersey hold their Governor's elections in the same year, and as everyone knows both of those state elected Republican Governors with a Democratic Presidents and both of those states elected Democratic Governors with Republican Presidents, So there is a good chance with trends that Corzine will be given the boot.

There is on real correlation between electing a dem pres and republican governor in NJ. That would just be a coincidence. I'd say the chance Corzine loses in 2009 is at 5-15% right now.

As for whether he deserves to be reelected, we will have to wait until late 2008 to know.

[Conan]

1.  If they are paying $14,000 in property taxes the home is worth close to $1,000,000 if not more

Not necessarily.  My parents pay slightly less in property taxes ($12k+), and have a home valued at slightly more than $500,000.

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Doug Forrester was attacked in 2002 and 2005 for a similar single year tax hike when he was mayor of West Windsor -- it had to do with an emergency capital expense.  Agreed: 24% tax increases (and that's a MASSIVE increase) are almost exclusively caused by major -- and urgent -- issues where the township's hands are often tied.

Though honestly, through my research, I can't find a Bergen County town whose property taxes have jumped 24% in the last year.

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Being rich through home appreciation is not really being rich.

He has said previously that his home is worth more than $1,000,000.... even though in NJ standards, depending on where you live, you can be anywhere from lower to middle, middle class still. Not saying that it's better if they'd move, but NJ has places, within reasonable commute, to where he currently lives, where he can trade his $1,000,000 home for a home of greater size with more land, for at a minimum of $400,000. And it would be possible to move to this home with taxes at $6-8,000 in taxes.

[Conan]

1.  If they are paying $14,000 in property taxes the home is worth close to $1,000,000 if not more

Not necessarily.  My parents pay slightly less in property taxes ($12k+), and have a home valued at slightly more than $500,000.

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Doug Forrester was attacked in 2002 and 2005 for a similar single year tax hike when he was mayor of West Windsor -- it had to do with an emergency capital expense.  Agreed: 24% tax increases (and that's a MASSIVE increase) are almost exclusively caused by major -- and urgent -- issues where the township's hands are often tied.

Though honestly, through my research, I can't find a Bergen County town whose property taxes have jumped 24% in the last year.

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Being rich through home appreciation is not really being rich.

He has said previously that his home is worth more than $1,000,000.... even though in NJ standards, depending on where you live, you can be anywhere from lower to middle, middle class still. Not saying that it's better if they'd move, but NJ has places, within reasonable commute, to where he currently lives, where he can trade his $1,000,000 home for a home of greater size with more land, for at a minimum of $400,000. And it would be possible to move to this home with taxes at $6-8,000 in taxes.

No, $1,000,000 is never lower class, not even in the most expensive parts of Bergen and Somerset. Of course, I'd be mildly surprised to learn that where he lives has any houses at all valued at $1,000,000 or higher simply because they're all fairly small and very tightly packed in Rutherford.

I don't know exactly what the property values should be, but my middle-class house is worth around $600,000 (estimating by recent local sales; my parents actually own the house, though they don't live here, and they bought it for $100,000 in the 80s), and is probably in an area of higher property values than most of Rutherford.

First I said lower middle class, even though it's worded poorly. Secondly one can be in the lower middle class with your home still worth $1,000,000. Home appreciation has skyrocketed. Someone could have moved to Rutherford in the late 80s and bought a house for $100-200,000. Now that house can be worth 1-1.2 million and they are struggling to pay the bills. Of course someone can just move out and cash the equity. It still doesnt mean someone can be living in a home worth over a million and not making a lot of cash. It would be different however, if someone were to pay the million for the house. Then you would be correct.

[Conan]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

How much you're house has become worth has nothing to do with how much a family makes. How much your house is worth doesnt determine your class either. There are tons of homes in NJ that you'd be surprised such a piece of crap was worth so much money. Your last point doesnt make sense either.  My cousin, who lives in an upperclass neighborhood in northern Bergen county in the Saddle River area, not saying which town for privacy reasons, paid a little over $100,000 for their home in the late 80s. Today the home is worth 1.25 million.They were not rich to begin with. However if someone bought a home where I live for $100,000 in 1989 or whatever, that house would probably be worth around $300,000.

[Conan]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

How much you're house has become worth has nothing to do with how much a family makes. How much your house is worth doesnt determine your class either. There are tons of homes in NJ that you'd be surprised such a piece of crap was worth so much money. Your last point doesnt make sense either.  My cousin, who lives in an upperclass neighborhood in northern Bergen county in the Saddle River area, not saying which town for privacy reasons, paid a little over $100,000 for their home in the late 80s. Today the home is worth 1.25 million.They were not rich to begin with. However if someone bought a home where I live for $100,000 in 1989 or whatever, that house would probably be worth around $300,000.

I will grant that there are exceptions to every rule.  Regardless, for the vast majority of cases, my point holds true.

In most cases you are correct. Most people would sell there homes to make the money and be more financially stable at another house.

[Conan]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

How much you're house has become worth has nothing to do with how much a family makes. How much your house is worth doesnt determine your class either. There are tons of homes in NJ that you'd be surprised such a piece of crap was worth so much money. Your last point doesnt make sense either.  My cousin, who lives in an upperclass neighborhood in northern Bergen county in the Saddle River area, not saying which town for privacy reasons, paid a little over $100,000 for their home in the late 80s. Today the home is worth 1.25 million.They were not rich to begin with. However if someone bought a home where I live for $100,000 in 1989 or whatever, that house would probably be worth around $300,000.

I will grant that there are exceptions to every rule.  Regardless, for the vast majority of cases, my point holds true.

In most cases you are correct. Most people would sell there homes to make the money and be more financially stable at another house.

Again, I strongly disagree with you.  Most people get very attached to their hometowns.  Especially if they've been living there for 30+ years, which would almost have to be the case to have a million dollar home.

There isn't exactly a huge trend towards downsizing, except among retirees, and downsizing is a tradition there, anyway.

So then you agree that people will have a home that can be worth over a million and yet they can still be lower middle class? Because you just made the case.

[Conan]

I agree: ownership of a $800,000 to 1,000,000 house, regardless of location in New Jersey, puts you firmly in the upper class.  Once you dip down closer to $500,000 or $600,000, you're now talking middle class—often upper middle class—because a lot of families just got to that point through decades of appreciation.

If a family got to $1,000,000 through decades of appreciation, well—they were rich to get that house in the first place.

How much you're house has become worth has nothing to do with how much a family makes. How much your house is worth doesnt determine your class either. There are tons of homes in NJ that you'd be surprised such a piece of crap was worth so much money. Your last point doesnt make sense either.  My cousin, who lives in an upperclass neighborhood in northern Bergen county in the Saddle River area, not saying which town for privacy reasons, paid a little over $100,000 for their home in the late 80s. Today the home is worth 1.25 million.They were not rich to begin with. However if someone bought a home where I live for $100,000 in 1989 or whatever, that house would probably be worth around $300,000.

I will grant that there are exceptions to every rule.  Regardless, for the vast majority of cases, my point holds true.

In most cases you are correct. Most people would sell there homes to make the money and be more financially stable at another house.

Again, I strongly disagree with you.  Most people get very attached to their hometowns.  Especially if they've been living there for 30+ years, which would almost have to be the case to have a million dollar home.

There isn't exactly a huge trend towards downsizing, except among retirees, and downsizing is a tradition there, anyway.

So then you agree that people will have a home that can be worth over a million and yet they can still be lower middle class? Because you just made the case.

Sorry, but it's not possible to live in the Saddle River area and be lower middle class. Maybe they aren't upper class, but a home worth $1,000,000, even in the extraordinarily overvalued Saddle River itself, is a larger-than-average one.

No, you obviously don't understand or know what you're talking about. It depends when the person bought the home. Just because the value of the home has changed, it doesnt mean your income has. It's extremely possible and there are hundreds of families living in homes they bought for 100-200,000 today whose homes are worth a million or more. Just because the value of the home has changed, doesnt mean their income has, nor their struggle to pay the bills on the original $100-200,000 mortgage. In any case they can just move and jump a few steps on the socio-economic ladder.

[Conan]

Again, I strongly disagree with you.  Most people get very attached to their hometowns.  Especially if they've been living there for 30+ years, which would almost have to be the case to have a million dollar home.

There isn't exactly a huge trend towards downsizing, except among retirees, and downsizing is a tradition there, anyway.

So then you agree that people will have a home that can be worth over a million and yet they can still be lower middle class? Because you just made the case.

No, I really think you're reading a lot more into that than is actually there.

Here's the problem with "lower middle class" families living in a $1,000,000 home: the numbers really don't work out.

First, lower middle class is roughly defined as having a yearly income between $32,500–60,000, with a heavy emphasis on the lower end of the range.  For the purposes of this demonstration, I'll set the income level at $40,000/year.

First, payroll taxes.  Federal/state taxes will be at a minimum thanks to a healthy property tax deduction, but they'll still cost the hypothetical family $2,300/year ($40k income|$15k deduction for property tax|2 withholding allowances).  You can't avoid the flat Social Security/Medicare/NJ Unemployment taxes, and they add up to an additional $3,430/year.

If they're living in a million dollar home, they've had to have been there for at least thirty years, so they probably won't have a mortgage payment at this point.  We'll assume the cost of that is zero.  (Which is good, becuase they wouldn't be able to afford one, as you'll soon see.)

First, property taxes on a place like that would probably be close to $15,000/year.  I'm not going to take into account any NJ Saver Rebates or the like, because they're unreliable to say the least.

Next, you'll need homeowners insurance, and coverage on a $1,000,000 home is pricey.  $4,000/year is not an unreasonable estimate (~0.033% monthly).

Second, maintenance will be a huge factor.  If they've been around the home for 30+ years, it will be in a near constant need for repairs (unless it was recently completely renovated, in which case there'd be a significant recurring loan payment).  In general, the estimate is that you'll spend 1% of the purchase price on repairs/maintenance every year.  That's probably exaggerated here, but still, an aging house will need a new roof, a new furnace, electrical work, painting/siding, etc.  You don't see too many million dollar homes in disrepair.  Let's budget a fourth of the recommended amount for this, $2,500/year.

Oh, and utilities.  Maybe $75/month on electricity; $50/month on cable; $40/month on phone; $2,000/year on gas (heat/hot water); another $400/year on sewer/water.  Hopefully, trash pickup is part of the property taxes for this poor family.  That's $4,380 per year total.

Already, we've eaten up $31,610 (79% of income) in taxes and home expenses alone.  We're not even talking commuting expenses (how many Bergen County residents can walk to work?), food, clothing, doctor's visits/prescription drugs (an increasingly large chunk of change for a family that's old enough to have stayed in one house for 30 years)...

...I'd say that a "lower middle class" family owning a $1,000,000 house is very very VERY rare indeed, even in New Jersey.

Your case is the strongest, as you are the first to bring taxes into the equation! Who would have thought! In a side note, not that is really puts much of a damper on your case but, you probably won't be able to get this information by yourself, 2 homes for sale in Saddle River one for 1.25 mill and the other for 1.29 mill have property taxes of $7,490 and $6,515 respectively. Odd to note that the second home is on the market for more money, yet its property taxes are lower. This is because its assessed building value is lower than the others. A home worth 2.8 has property taxes of $16,410.

[Conan]

Smash, it's real easy, you only like hiim because you have a good governor and don't have to deal with this retard

Sorry little boy, but just because someone has property tax relief which focuses on making those in the middle and working class lives easier as opposed to policies which make it easier for a spoiled rich kid's parents to buy him a nicer car and so that spoiled rich kid can buy what he wants without getting a job does not make the guy a retard.  You lost all credibility to bitch about Corzine when those were some of the reasons you gave for disliking him.

Those weren't reasons I gave for disliking him, those were reasons I gave for why taxes effected me, you should probably actually read what I say.  However, the point remains it's really easy to sit in NY and say you like this guy.

The problem is that you haven't actually given any reasons that you don't like him other than "OMG my taxes are going up!!!1111"

He's raised the sales tax, created a budget standstill, approved of the civil unions and represents all that is wrong about the Democratic machine in NJ.  Codey should be the governor and I think it would only be justice for him to take what is rightfully his.

You really like Codey too much. Codey is part of the machine and has been a big part of blocking ethics legislation. Corzine isn't close to the machines and that is apparent when he is clashing with his own democratic legislature. However, if you think the sales tax increase is so terrible, then you're just really cheap.  The budget standstill was at the fault of the legislature too.

Smash, it's real easy, you only like hiim because you have a good governor and don't have to deal with this retard

Sorry little boy, but just because someone has property tax relief which focuses on making those in the middle and working class lives easier as opposed to policies which make it easier for a spoiled rich kid's parents to buy him a nicer car and so that spoiled rich kid can buy what he wants without getting a job does not make the guy a retard.  You lost all credibility to bitch about Corzine when those were some of the reasons you gave for disliking him.

Even though he says he lives in a million dollar home, I don't think he thinks he is or even is rich. Anyway, if one does have a million dollar home, it still can take a lot of work and budget restraints to help your kid to get a car. Anyway, I don't think he is this spoiled little rich kid because he lives in Rutherford or East Rutherford, which according to the book of New Jerseyan Codes, isn't high up on anyones lists of places to live, no offense.

[Conan]

Smash, it's real easy, you only like hiim because you have a good governor and don't have to deal with this retard

Sorry little boy, but just because someone has property tax relief which focuses on making those in the middle and working class lives easier as opposed to policies which make it easier for a spoiled rich kid's parents to buy him a nicer car and so that spoiled rich kid can buy what he wants without getting a job does not make the guy a retard.  You lost all credibility to bitch about Corzine when those were some of the reasons you gave for disliking him.

Those weren't reasons I gave for disliking him, those were reasons I gave for why taxes effected me, you should probably actually read what I say.  However, the point remains it's really easy to sit in NY and say you like this guy.

The problem is that you haven't actually given any reasons that you don't like him other than "OMG my taxes are going up!!!1111"

He's raised the sales tax, created a budget standstill, approved of the civil unions and represents all that is wrong about the Democratic machine in NJ.  Codey should be the governor and I think it would only be justice for him to take what is rightfully his.

You really like Codey too much. Codey is part of the machine and has been a big part of blocking ethics legislation. Corzine isn't close to the machines and that is apparent when he is clashing with his own democratic legislature. However, if you think the sales tax increase is so terrible, then you're just really cheap.  The budget standstill was at the fault of the legislature too.

Smash, it's real easy, you only like hiim because you have a good governor and don't have to deal with this retard

Sorry little boy, but just because someone has property tax relief which focuses on making those in the middle and working class lives easier as opposed to policies which make it easier for a spoiled rich kid's parents to buy him a nicer car and so that spoiled rich kid can buy what he wants without getting a job does not make the guy a retard.  You lost all credibility to bitch about Corzine when those were some of the reasons you gave for disliking him.

Even though he says he lives in a million dollar home, I don't think he thinks he is or even is rich. Anyway, if one does have a million dollar home, it still can take a lot of work and budget restraints to help your kid to get a car. Anyway, I don't think he is this spoiled little rich kid because he lives in Rutherford or East Rutherford, which according to the book of New Jerseyan Codes, isn't high up on anyones lists of places to live, no offense.

However, with the way he complained about his parents taxes going up leads me to believe that they make a large sum of $$ because if I'm not mistaken the property tax relief Corzine put forth is similar to what we have in NY, in which we have tax breaks based on the income levels, and it takes a rather large income not to qualify for the relief.  The only way his taxes can go up the amount he is suggesting would be a combination of a large jump in local, school taxes combined with an income level that is too high to qualify for the relief. 

So he either comes from a family with a lot of $$ or is flat out lying about the tax increase, possibly a combination of the two, but their is no way the taxes can go up the amount he is suggesting if the income level isn't quite high, not with the relief package Corzine  signed.

Yea... I don't think he lied either. I just think he got bad information. Their town isn't getting a 24% increase...he will probably pay around $1000 less in taxes. And yes, you are correct, the tax cuts are based on income levels.