College Recruitment for the Military Protection Bill

[jerusalemcar5]

Right now, I think I support this act. Univeristies and colleges that are publically funded must also be subject to relevant government programs. I don't think it is fair that a public institution should bar public servants from doing their business on their grounds.

Why would we give military recruiters free reign to pick and choose which college or university they want to recruit at while not giving the college and universities free reign over whether or not they want to allow them?  The military is as much a public institution as public colleges and universities.

If universities are acting independent from eachother in making rules in regards to federal institutions, it undermines the purpose of federal funding altogether. The government has an equal jurisdiction over all public universities, and therefore when it comes to another federal department, it should not let one university be better or worse than another.

Another thing, this may encourage recruiters to targer poorer areas less as there will be more incentive to students of higer classes. I caution however this may just be a possibility and not a reality. 

Actually public universities tend to service lower to lower middle class students.  Sometimes, it is the first time someone in the family has gone to college.  Recruiters there sends the message that the military is more important.  It isn't.

[jerusalemcar5]

Public institutions can all the time refuse to let in other insitutions.  I don't see public universities being allowed throughout military bases!  This bill holds the military in higher regard than the university!  The larger the military you have, the more expensive to the taxpayer.  Assuming I didn't miss some change between the U.S. and Atlasia, Atlasia has nukes, cruise missiles, and tanks.  You don't need many people to operate those and we shouldn't be needing to use those much either.

[jerusalemcar5]

Public institutions can all the time refuse to let in other insitutions.  I don't see public universities being allowed throughout military bases!  This bill holds the military in higher regard than the university!  The larger the military you have, the more expensive to the taxpayer.  Assuming I didn't miss some change between the U.S. and Atlasia, Atlasia has nukes, cruise missiles, and tanks.  You don't need many people to operate those and we shouldn't be needing to use those much either.

That may be one of, if not the most, uninformed post ever posted on this forum.

Your proposition is useless unless you propose that our only possible response to any military incident is to A. lob cruise missiles or B. fire nuclear missiles at the enemy.

No, I'm just saying a smaller military would make more sense.  We don't need it to be so large.

[jerusalemcar5]

Aye

*boos*

I can see crazy conservative nuts like good ol' Master jedi voting aye, but you Earl?  What a violation of principles!  I urge you to change your vote because forcing the military upon our nation is not a good thing.  If you're looking for more volunteers, don't stalk them!  Just set up shop in town and real volunteers will come and you can recruit at places that allow you.  But the Atlasian military has no mandated place in our regional universities.

Therefore, I strongly urge you to change your vote.

[jerusalemcar5]

I think this definitely steps up to the line, if not quite over (and it may very well be over), of Article 1 Section 6 Clause 7 of the Second Constitution.

"No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed"

It is a regional matter (these are regional universities), the Senate has no place, unless you possibly argue that federal funds justify it, but this bill goes beyond federally funded universities.  I would consdier bringing this to the Supreme Court if it passes.

[jerusalemcar5]

Aye

*boos*

I can see crazy conservative nuts like good ol' Master jedi voting aye, but you Earl?  What a violation of principles!  I urge you to change your vote because forcing the military upon our nation is not a good thing.  If you're looking for more volunteers, don't stalk them!  Just set up shop in town and real volunteers will come and you can recruit at places that allow you.  But the Atlasian military has no mandated place in our regional universities.

Therefore, I strongly urge you to change your vote.

You don't know anything you're talking about.

Awww, I feel the love, it's buried, but I can still feel it.  Annnnnyways, why don't I?

[jerusalemcar5]

Aye

*boos*

I can see crazy conservative nuts like good ol' Master jedi voting aye, but you Earl?  What a violation of principles!  I urge you to change your vote because forcing the military upon our nation is not a good thing.  If you're looking for more volunteers, don't stalk them!  Just set up shop in town and real volunteers will come and you can recruit at places that allow you.  But the Atlasian military has no mandated place in our regional universities.

Therefore, I strongly urge you to change your vote.

You don't know anything you're talking about.

Awww, I feel the love, it's buried, but I can still feel it.  Annnnnyways, why don't I?

We're not forcing anybody to join the military. We're letting them come on campus and put up a booth that would allow people to come over, not being pushed in. So when you say we're forcing the military on people and stalking them you don't know what you're talking about. And just an FYI, I hate your politics but I have nothing against you personally.

I never said that you were conscripting people.  I said you are forcing, (not letting, that was nice BS wording), region's universities to host the military and they do not want to.  You can't do that, it is wrong.  I said that you're stalking them because you have military officials that are supposed to recruit, not just stay in a booth, college students going from class to class.  They are not forcing them, but they take students out of college and interrupt the campus life.

[jerusalemcar5]

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You also wouldn't have any case *at all* in front of the Supreme Court, as the Senate is perfectly free to make rules providing for the appropriation of federal funds to public universities.

I am missing this connection.  The Senate can give money to region's universities which can be accepted or denied by the universities.  The Senate forcing the acceptance of military recruiters gives no freedom and forces the region to take action that is not given by the constitution.  If I am missing your parallel please explain more.

[jerusalemcar5]

And of course I'll seek a veto override. Another horrible decision Mr. President.

Isn't it terrible when our presidents defend freedom?  and education?  It is too out of the oridnary for me to handle, I expect them to be more like you, that is supporting supremacy of the military over free instituions of thought making informed decisions.

[jerusalemcar5]

VETO

Ebowed=FF

Ebowed and Colin Wixted=FF

Master Jedi=HP/TF

TF means Totalitarian Fighter which I am coining just for my good pal Master Jedi.

[jerusalemcar5]

VETO

Ebowed=FF

Ebowed and Colin Wixted=FF

Master Jedi=HP/TF

TF means Totalitarian Fighter which I am coining just for my good pal Master Jedi.

Wow, nice job thinking that up. -_- I really don't care what you think about me, you're an ultra liberal hack.

Why thank you, I spent a considerable amount of time on that .

I'll take ultra liberal, that's a good thing, but don't you think hack is over the edge?  Well I love you anyway, *HUGS AND KISSES*

[jerusalemcar5]

Why thank you, I spent a considerable amount of time on that .

I'll take ultra liberal, that's a good thing, but don't you think hack is over the edge?  Well I love you anyway, *HUGS AND KISSES*

Someone who will always vote for the same party or political side (left or right) is a hack and a horrible person. I won't always vote for a Republican because I know that that can be bad sometimes. You just haven't figured that out yet, but you should fast because it helps greatly.

Except for the fact that I supported Republicans for state assembly and the house of represenatives just this last election.  I do review all the candidates before offering my support.  I expect you do the same.  Just because I'm a liberal doesn't mean I must vote Democratic.

[jerusalemcar5]

It's not as though a military career is an unworthy one for young Atlasians to choose

Sure, but it seem to me that it's not unreasonable to allow universities to choose, since students can always find a place to sign up if they want to.

The military will be there to recruit , not to press-gang , students

'Hawk'

I don't see what stops military recruiters from wandering the campus and double teaming students.

[jerusalemcar5]

Aye. 

There really is no good argument against this, except for the personal reasons of joke posters like jerusalemcar.  Every college ought to have recruiters on campus.

Except for the arguments posted by many others, like Gabu, ilikeverin, Ebowed, and Justice Colin Wixted.  Of course I'm sure they are "joke posters" too since they don't agree with your totalitarian views.  Justice Wixted has pointed out, along with several others, that the Senate has no constitutional standing in regional universities.  What makes you think your idea, that the military trumps the schools of learning and cultural advancement, more pressing than the constitution?  I suggest you actually research the issues before posting ignorant statements like that.

Abstain. Though I did vote in favor of the bill itself, I respect the president's decision and I completely understand where he is coming from. Therefor I can not, in good conscience, vote to override Ebowed',s veto.

That's weak.

Don't you hate it when people respect the President?  They should just be blind and impulsive.

[jerusalemcar5]

Current Veto Override Tally (Keystone Phil, Yates and EarlAW left to vote)

5 Aye (MasterJedi, WMS, Dave Hawk, Virginian87, Bacon King)
2 Nay (Gabu, Ilikeverin)

It'll depend on Yates's respect for the constituion.  KeystonePhil is an easy "aye" and Earl will be an "abstain."

[jerusalemcar5]

To Senator Master Jedi:  I am sorry if I have offended you, but I was merely stating my point.  You have repeatedly asked me to leave the Senate when I argue against bills you sponsor when it is my right and duty as an Atlasian citizen to state my position on the bills and laws in this republic.  I will not leave Senator, unless you can show me something that truly offends the Senate.

To Senator Dave Hawk:  I do not deny that I support the right of a university to make decisions that will benefit the school.  But this is not "anti-military activism."  I'm not trying to cut soldiers' pay or disband the whole army, I simply believe that a massive army is not necessary for Atlasia.  I wouldn't march through the streets tring to damage our armed forces, but that is an opinion of mine.  I also say that I wholeheartedly would accept, obviously not without a fight, the passage of a bill such as this in regional assemblies as stated in the Constitution.  I have more than one reason to be against this bill, and the constitutional one is just as great if not greater than the others.  Also, please don't call my beliefs "anti-military activism" if you aren't willing to call yours "pro-military activism."  You are actively and diligently trying to force the military on universities.  I don't believe that is necessarily activism, but if I'm an activist, then you are sir. 

I'd like to end this with a quote from yourself.

I, Dave Hawk, do solemnly affirm that I will faithfully execute the office of Senator for District Four and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the Republic of Atlasia, so help me Dave.

'Hawk'

I don't see the "I will let the Supreme Court deal with the Constituion while I ignore it" phrase.  It is your duty as you swore as a Senator to be sure that anything you pass is constitutional, sir.

[jerusalemcar5]

I have officially been confused by the Constitution.  I don't understand who has authority where, and when this authority is checked and by whom, and I believe some sections to conflict.  (Thank goodness we are having a convention, we all need to clear this up).

Clause 15 either hinders or does not help your case.  Forcing the military on universities does not provide education and could possibly hinder it, but that is open to interpretation.  It does not give the Senate control over education, merely gives it the power to help.

For clause 22 I'm going to have to question the wording.  What does the word "support" mean?  How loosely is that word used, because that could allow the Senate to do A LOT of things for the military if interpreted one way.  I don't know what the intention of "support" was so I cannot fully respond.

Finally, I have no idea how much impact the federal governemnt has on these universities.  They are all regionally run (the only public national universities are military academies) and the Atlasian budget gives no details into how the Education Subdepartment spends its money. It only receives 56 billion dollars however which implies minimal funding per university.  

[jerusalemcar5]

At the end of the day, I see no reason why public universities should refuse the military access to recruit other than for anti-military political activism - and thus, I can't withdraw my support for this Bill

'Hawk'

I have a couple possibilities.  Military recruiters are known to be fairly agressive in their techniques, at least moreso than other job recruiters.  They also tend to exploit soft points in people (i.e. poverty, the want to be valiant, etc.).  Many students attending these schools are prime targets for being recruited away from college and losing their valuable education because they tend to fit the characteristics stated above.  University leaders might want to protect students from putting themsleves in harm's way because of an exploitation.  It isn't that they hate the military, but these students often are the first in their family to attend college and they merely want to protect them.

[jerusalemcar5]

Of course, I referred to the Clause 15 of Section 5 Article I of the Second Constitution, which I understood as specifically stating that the provision of education was a responsiblity of the Atlasian Senate

'Hawk'

It merely says the Senate has the power to aid education.  I strongly doubt you can come up with a serious reason why forcing the military on campuses helps education.

Military and education are not intertwined at all.  Yet another reason to not have them on school grounds.

[jerusalemcar5]

Given that our national defense is, arguably, the primary role of federal government.

This is the "George W. Bush Philosophy" which is that defending our country comes before all other matters.  The "Founding Fathers Philosophy" is that the Constitution and the freedom of our people come first.  The latter philosophy was largely ignored as time went on in the U.S. and we all know where we are now.  I would hope that Atlasia would not venture down the same path and that the senators would not ignore their oath to uphold the constitution as their top priority, not to defend the country and the top priority.

As I've said time and time again, students won't be press-ganged into joining the military but will do so at their own free will.

Would you point me to such a clause in the bill?  How do you make sure that these recruiters would disregard practices that they commonly use on city streets?  I think you putting the ideal ahead of the reality.

[jerusalemcar5]

Has anyone heard from Yates lately? He just seems to have diappeared and we need him to vote on this.

This vote should be closed.  Is it legally mandated that it stay open?  Yates has been given ample time, but he is away and if is no legal reason to wait for his vote we shoould just declare this a failed override.  (It doesn't matter anyway since two justices have already said this is unconstitutional).

[jerusalemcar5]

Is it legally mandated that it stay open?

Senate rules state that a vote may last for a maximum of 7 days.

Thank you.

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Those statements are of no legal effect. They may, after all, change once the justices have heard full arguments.
[/quote]

Obviously they have no legal standing, I am just providing it as further evidence of the constitutionality of the this bill.

[jerusalemcar5]

Given that our national defense is, arguably, the primary role of federal government.

This is the "George W. Bush Philosophy" which is that defending our country comes before all other matters.  The "Founding Fathers Philosophy" is that the Constitution and the freedom of our people come first.  The latter philosophy was largely ignored as time went on in the U.S. and we all know where we are now.  I would hope that Atlasia would not venture down the same path and that the senators would not ignore their oath to uphold the constitution as their top priority, not to defend the country and the top priority.

Likening the Hawk's 'philosophy' to that of George W. Bush, now that's a first

'Hawk'

Well you guys do agree on that point .

[jerusalemcar5]

If Yates doesn't vote, this can't pass

Tomorrow is last day! Yay!

[jerusalemcar5]

And of course I'll seek a veto override. Another horrible decision Mr. President.

At 11:10:23 this morning it should be finished.