Facts About Sweden

[opebo]

That being said, how attractive will this model remain when it offers only half of the per capita income of the United States?

Very attractive.  Even if the per capita income were higher in the US, it is so unevenly distributed that the vast majority of people would be better of being Swedes.
Sweden's PPI  - $28,400    http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sw.html
US  PPI           - $40,100 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Certainly the US has a larger PPI, but Sweden's is obviously more than the half your source claims, even by the spurious U.S.-favoring 'PPI'.   And again, GDP is much more unequally distributed in the US, and therefore irrelevant to the majority of the population.  These figures are from the CIA World Factbook, and I strongly dislike the Purchasing Power Index figure, as it does not reflect currency strength.  Alas this biased number is pervasive, and I could not find any charts of real GDP per capita online.  Sweden's real GDP would be, I am sure, much closer to that of the US (with its collapsing dollar), without all the purchasing power index trickery.

[opebo]

Those who encourage this type of economic and social liberalism have no idea of the road to hell that they are paving.

Good lord man, you are waxing hyperbolic!  Even if Bono's dubious claims are true (which they are not - see my post above), the fictional Sweden his right wing source describes is still very far from 'hell'!  In fact I don't see how anyone could dispute that it is preferable to the US for most of the working class.

[opebo]

Those who encourage this type of economic and social liberalism have no idea of the road to hell that they are paving.

Good lord man, you are waxing hyperbolic!  Even if Bono's dubious claims are true (which they are not - see my post above), the fictional Sweden his right wing source describes is still very far from 'hell'!  In fact I don't see how anyone could dispute that it is preferable to the US for most of the working class.

Very clever, becuasse I said "Will be", not is.
Distorting words and attacking sources are the arguments of the truly desperate.

What on earth does my post have to do with you?  I was refering to dazzleman's post quoted above, not yours. 

I only said I doubted your claims.  You never used the world 'hell' - that was dazzleman.  If you would like to see my critique of your original posting, look at my response just below it.

[opebo]

Yay another thread that allows the same group of people to have another hackneyed debate about the same f***king thing (which also allows them to claim that country x is inferior).

None of you are even trying to be objective, none of you are even bothering to compare like with like, all of you are cherry picking whatever statistics prop up you're arguements, most of you then proceed to take that out of context and spin it around for all it's worth... etc. etc. etc.

The essential difference is perspective.  Bono and company evaluate an economy based on its overall performance and either disregard or applaud that the benefits that flow to the owning class.  I'm just making the point that their priorities have little to do with the interests of the majority of the population.  Any reasonable person can see that the bottom 80% of society will be far better off in Sweden.

[opebo]

Yay another thread that allows the same group of people to have another hackneyed debate about the same f***king thing (which also allows them to claim that country x is inferior).

None of you are even trying to be objective, none of you are even bothering to compare like with like, all of you are cherry picking whatever statistics prop up you're arguements, most of you then proceed to take that out of context and spin it around for all it's worth... etc. etc. etc.

The essential difference is perspective.  Bono and company evaluate an economy based on its overall performance and either disregard or applaud that the benefits that flow to the owning class.  I'm just making the point that their priorities have little to do with the interests of the majority of the population.  Any reasonable person can see that the bottom 80% of society will be far better off in Sweden.

You are the living proff Hans-Herman Hoppe is right.
People who live shallow lifestyles can't think long term.

I have no idea why you would think my lifestyle 'shallow', or exactly what you mean by that.  Certainly an individual human life is too brief for 'long term' thinking to actually be reasonable (mortality and all that).  Your Hoppe sounds like a stupid, moralizing prig.

However, to examine these two societal types over the longer term, we still come up against the same problem.  The laissez-faire society, while it may continue to grow and produce over the 'long term', will always give next to nothing to the lower class.  And even if the mildly redistributionist Swedish style economy falters, it is unlikely to ever actually be as bad for the working class as the laissez-faire one, even if it grows slowly or not at all.

Try for just one moment to put yourself in someone elses situation, and you will see that different types of economies work well for different classes of people.  There is no one size fits all.  Sweden is a good compromise between capitalism and socialism (akin to American liberalism), and a great model for the future of the U.S.

[opebo]

See what I mean? Why bother having this debate? You all know what you think, and you're not going to convince anyone due to the extreme positions you're all taking up. Let's just all agree on this:

1. Sweden is not perfect.
2. Sweden is not a collapsing hellhole either.

Agreed.  And:

3.  It is better to be a poor in Sweden than in the U.S.
4.  It is better to be a rich in the US than in Sweden.

[opebo]

See what I mean? Why bother having this debate? You all know what you think, and you're not going to convince anyone due to the extreme positions you're all taking up. Let's just all agree on this:

1. Sweden is not perfect.
2. Sweden is not a collapsing hellhole either.

Agreed.  And:

3.  It is better to be a poor in Sweden than in the U.S.
4.  It is better to be a rich in the US than in Sweden.

Another way of looking at it:
Its better to be a deadbeat in Sweden
Its better to be a productive person in the US.

What do the terms 'deadbeat' and 'productive person' have to do with the working and owning classes respectively?

[opebo]

^^^^^ Oh boy another communist. Where do you guys keep coming from? Do they teach this stuff in college or do you just naturally gravitate to it?

I think both... it's a popular thing around colleges here.

Yeah, we need another McCarthy. I miss the halls of Congress being occupied by great men such as he was.

The halls of Congress are occupied by that same exact type at present, so don't worry.

[opebo]

I'm not in favor of any McCarthy style witch hunts, but I just have to wonder what the attraction is for communism. I can understand people who support socialism because there are European socialist states or at least socialist leaning states that are doing OK. But nowhere is there an example of a communist state that could be termed successful. There is only death, tryanny, and poverty. What the hell is so good about that?

Simple, David S.  Social heirarchies in which most people are trapped in their position generate massive amounts of angst and resentment.  It is only natural for people experiencing that reaction to their social 'cage' to want to tear down the whole oppressive system, even it what is left afterwards is nothing more than Pol Pot's piles of skulls.

[opebo]

Opebo I don't know why you think Americans are so oppressed. Do you really think there is a social cage here which is anything like the kind of social cage one would encounter in China, or North Korea, or the former USSR? Unemployed people here are better off than people who work hard every day for a living in those countries.

Not so.  Unemployed people in the US are utterly destitute, as there is - for most people - no safety net.  What I am refering to as a 'social cage' is the condition of the working class.  They are on a treadmill with no hope of change, and they can see to whom productive surpluses flow.  It is only natural for them to resent those above them in the heirarchy.

[opebo]

Sweden is not complete social liberal. They have illegalized prostitution and possibly will do same to porn.

Tragic.  No wonder they all leave for very extended vacations.

Actually I read they criminalized patronizing prostitutes, but not being a prostitute - putting the onus on the poor horny male.

[opebo]

My sister is an exchange student in Sweden.  Living expenses are higher in Sweden (look at the cost of Vodka - it's like $40 a bottle), and she gets paid about $3 an hour to work in a university restaurant.

Sweden has high taxes on alcohol! That's not the same thing as high living costs.

Gustaf, could you give an outline of the cost of living there?  How much for an apartment in Stockholm?  How much for dining out?  A drink in a bar?

I would ask about girls but apparentely that isn't available.