SENATE BILL: Fulfilling Railway Promises Act (Passed)

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Just to let you know, although this bill does appear to be very well written the route is not really something serious. The Whitefish to Thunder Bay rail line originated as a joke within Atlas's train geek community. It wouldn't be very beneficial to Canadians and wouldn't be beneficial at all to Atlasians. For reference, this is the route:

(Also with noting is that Cranbrook, Alberta does not exist)

I'd argue the Canadian part of the line (from Calgary to Winnipeg at least) would be somewhat useful to Canadians, as there doesn't seem to be any rail service there (there is service on a more northern Edmonton-Saskatoon-Winnipeg line though).

At that point, just turn south and extend the line east of Winnipeg and you have a new rail line, Atlas' dream line made true.

Of course, if only the Canadian part of the line makes sense then this should be dropped.

(While the proposals were never serious, I did think with a bit of change they could be a real line).

I'll just point out that both bruhg's original line, and your ideas for a reworked line already exist.


(BNSF northern transcon runs through Whitefish, then they have multiple branches connecting to both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific, both of whom have railway lines to Thunder Bay.)

[AustralianSwingVoter]

So why are we building a brand new railway when there's a railway that already exists that you can use.
Also, why are you taking a train chat meme seriously. Come on, this is stupid.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Freight rail is rather misunderstood.


Especially when it comes to debates about nationalizing railways. Passenger service in the US isn't profitable , but freight rail is very much so post-deregulation.

Obviously. And that's my point. Why are we trying to spend millions of dollars on running a useless passenger train between two tiny random cities all because bruhg created a stupid meme?

Also, why are you taking a train chat meme seriously. Come on, this is stupid.

Are you kidding, this is the closest thing to how real bills should be debated that I have seen in a long time in this place. If anything I plan to use this as a textbook example to prove that serious debate in chambers is possible in the modern era.

Once again, why are we trying to spend millions of dollars on running a useless passenger train between two tiny random cities all because bruhg created a stupid meme?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Just to let you know, although this bill does appear to be very well written the route is not really something serious. The Whitefish to Thunder Bay rail line originated as a joke within Atlas's train geek community. It wouldn't be very beneficial to Canadians and wouldn't be beneficial at all to Atlasians. For reference, this is the route:

(Also with noting is that Cranbrook, Alberta does not exist)

I'd argue the Canadian part of the line (from Calgary to Winnipeg at least) would be somewhat useful to Canadians, as there doesn't seem to be any rail service there (there is service on a more northern Edmonton-Saskatoon-Winnipeg line though).

At that point, just turn south and extend the line east of Winnipeg and you have a new rail line, Atlas' dream line made true.

Of course, if only the Canadian part of the line makes sense then this should be dropped.

(While the proposals were never serious, I did think with a bit of change they could be a real line).

I'll just point out that both bruhg's original line, and your ideas for a reworked line already exist.


(BNSF northern transcon runs through Whitefish, then they have multiple branches connecting to both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific, both of whom have railway lines to Thunder Bay.)

Thing is, those are cargo lines for the most part. Both Canada and the US have a much smaller passenger service

I'm just going to point out that if you look at your map you'll notice both Thunder Bay and Whitefish already have passenger service. All you're doing is opening a useless link between the two lines crossing the border.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

So why are we building a brand new railway when there's a railway that already exists that you can use.
Also, why are you taking a train chat meme seriously. Come on, this is stupid.

This merely mandates a passenger service, it doesn't build a single km of new track (I designed the line on purpose to take as many large Canadian towns as possible while not building a single km of track). And while it was indeed a meme, with some modifications we could make it real and effective.

Plus I have to keep the all important train chat meme constituency

Why do these 2 random cities deserve an unprofitable passenger service? What is the point of launching a useless train route between two small cities just so bruhg's meme can become reality?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Actually, Thunder Bay technically doesn't have service (the line goes further north around Sioux Lookout)

Also, as a sidenote, I'm starting to think the Seattle extension should be a mandate instead of an option, the line doesn't really make much sense without it.

Thunder Bay's passenger service has been on and off over the years. Indeed, VIA has recently been talking about bringing back the service.

Also, there is already Amtrak service between Whitefish and Seattle

[AustralianSwingVoter]

And shouldn't this be handled by the Fremont regional government?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

So why are we building a brand new railway when there's a railway that already exists that you can use.
Also, why are you taking a train chat meme seriously. Come on, this is stupid.

This merely mandates a passenger service, it doesn't build a single km of new track (I designed the line on purpose to take as many large Canadian towns as possible while not building a single km of track). And while it was indeed a meme, with some modifications we could make it real and effective.

Plus I have to keep the all important train chat meme constituency

Why do these 2 random cities deserve an unprofitable passenger service? What is the point of launching a useless train route between two small cities just so bruhg's meme can become reality?

Well, for a start most passenger rail lines are unprofitable.

Looking at the Amtrak report I posted previously, not a single long distance line is profitable. Although the Empire Builder (the line this is most comparable to) is indeed the most unprofitable Amtrak line, although a couple other lines have comparable losses of around 32 million $.

I would expect traffic on the Canadian side of the border to be higher than the RL Amtrak line though, as Calgary and Winnipeg have higher populations than any population centers on the Amtrak line. Even Thunder Bay itself or Regina would be large stops compared to the RL route.

On the Atlasian side of the border I would also expect decent ridership numbers between Seattle and Spokane.

Really my only question was where to go from Thunder Bay (it's not an ideal end of the line), but I decided that was something for the Canadians to decide

So you admit this line will bleed money constantly. So why are we doing it?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Just going to point out that no one is going to like this given both Atlasia and Canada have nationalised their passenger rail networks.
So why are we going to have one single passenger line completely independent of the 2 national passenger rail operators?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

So why are we building a brand new railway when there's a railway that already exists that you can use.
Also, why are you taking a train chat meme seriously. Come on, this is stupid.

This merely mandates a passenger service, it doesn't build a single km of new track (I designed the line on purpose to take as many large Canadian towns as possible while not building a single km of track). And while it was indeed a meme, with some modifications we could make it real and effective.

Plus I have to keep the all important train chat meme constituency

Why do these 2 random cities deserve an unprofitable passenger service? What is the point of launching a useless train route between two small cities just so bruhg's meme can become reality?

Well, for a start most passenger rail lines are unprofitable.

Looking at the Amtrak report I posted previously, not a single long distance line is profitable. Although the Empire Builder (the line this is most comparable to) is indeed the most unprofitable Amtrak line, although a couple other lines have comparable losses of around 32 million $.

I would expect traffic on the Canadian side of the border to be higher than the RL Amtrak line though, as Calgary and Winnipeg have higher populations than any population centers on the Amtrak line. Even Thunder Bay itself or Regina would be large stops compared to the RL route.

On the Atlasian side of the border I would also expect decent ridership numbers between Seattle and Spokane.

Really my only question was where to go from Thunder Bay (it's not an ideal end of the line), but I decided that was something for the Canadians to decide

So you admit this line will bleed money constantly. So why are we doing it?

Do you want to abolish Amtrak then?

No, of course not.
But I do wonder what Amtrak will think about having a competitor to their already horrendously unprofitable Empire Builder line.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

So, how will we make sure that Canada does its part and agrees to fund their section of it.

Good question. I designed the bill in a way where no provisions of the act would be enacted unless the Canadian government agreed to the operation.

At the end of the day, Canada is a sovereign country and so they could hypothetically unilaterally pull out at any time without prior notice.

Also, there isn't really a good way of making sure Canada does its part, it's not like you can force them. I imagine in such a case the route would simply be closed or not opened in the first place.

Why would Canada even let this train run on its tracks in the first place? Neither Canadian National nor Canadian Pacific would ever let some random american passenger train on their rather lucrative fright network. They have enough problems with the VIA rail services.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Just going to point out that no one is going to like this given both Atlasia and Canada have nationalised their passenger rail networks.
So why are we going to have one single passenger line completely independent of the 2 national passenger rail operators?

To be fair, that's not an uncommon way of handling international routes. A good example might be the Eurostar between Paris and London. Which is not handled by neither SNCF nor British companies

The alternative could be a joint service between Via Rail and Amtrak or outright allowing VIA Rail to operate in Atlasia.

So you admit this line will bleed money constantly. So why are we doing it?

Well, I actually think we can kill 2 birds with one stone. As I said before, the already existing route between Chicago and Seattle (through Whitefish and much of the north) is Amtrak's most unprofitable line. So why not replace it with a better alternative through Canada?

The only issue would be with the end point as it would end in Thunder Bay, or most likely, in Toronto; as opposed to ending in Chicago.

At the end of the day I imagine such a route would be mostly touristy in nature and I don't think the intermediate sections get much passengers. I'm not sure if a route through Canada would be more scenic, but based on population numbers it should have more passengers.

So even if it bleeds money, it would bleed less money than the current comparable route through North Dakota and Montana.

How the hell could this possibly replace the Empire Builder? This route doesn't go to Chicago. Literally the entire passenger contingent of the Empire Builder is people destined for MSP or Chicago.
How can this route bleed less money than the Empire Builder when it stops servicing 2 of the 3 main cities the Empire Builder serves?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Also, someone has miscalculated something here.

THE EMPIRE BUILDER IS ONE OF AMTRAK'S MOST PROFITABLE ROUTES

No way in hell is Amtrak giving up on the Empire Builder. It's their second highest revenue route, and if it wasn't for the ludicrous fees BNSF charges, it would be more profitable (well, smaller loss) than the Acela Express.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Also, someone has miscalculated something here.

THE EMPIRE BUILDER IS ONE OF AMTRAK'S MOST PROFITABLE ROUTES

No way in hell is Amtrak giving up on the Empire Builder. It's their second highest revenue route, and if it wasn't for the ludicrous fees BNSF charges, it would be more profitable (well, smaller loss) than the Acela Express.

To be fair I only proposed it as a replacement to save costs and try to reduce your concerns.

If it is profitable then there is no need ro have it as a replacement as both can coexist

Still not asking my question. Who is going to take this train?
From Seattle or Portland, if you're going to Toronto it's far quicker to go through Chicago and Detroit than it is to go the long way around Lake Superior. If you're going to Winnipeg it's far quicker to go up to Vancouver then take the Canadian network.
So who exactly is going to take this train?

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Also, someone has miscalculated something here.

THE EMPIRE BUILDER IS ONE OF AMTRAK'S MOST PROFITABLE ROUTES

No way in hell is Amtrak giving up on the Empire Builder. It's their second highest revenue route, and if it wasn't for the ludicrous fees BNSF charges, it would be more profitable (well, smaller loss) than the Acela Express.

To be fair I only proposed it as a replacement to save costs and try to reduce your concerns.

If it is profitable then there is no need ro have it as a replacement as both can coexist

Still not asking my question. Who is going to take this train?
From Seattle or Portland, if you're going to Toronto it's far quicker to go through Chicago and Detroit than it is to go the long way around Lake Superior. If you're going to Winnipeg it's far quicker to go up to Vancouver then take the Canadian network.
So who exactly is going to take this train?

People going to and from Calgary I assume.

Once again, it would be far quicker to go via Vancouver and the Canadian lines.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Also, someone has miscalculated something here.

THE EMPIRE BUILDER IS ONE OF AMTRAK'S MOST PROFITABLE ROUTES

No it isn't.

Sorry, I meant revenue, not profit.
As of Jan 2019 the Empire Builder is Amtrak's long-distance route with the second largest revenue (also 2nd best ridership and 3rd best on time performance) (Amtrak Performance Report Jan 2019) behind only the California Zephyr. The main problem is the large operating costs, mainly the exorbitant cost of track rights that BNSF imposes on Amtrak.
Key problem with the article you've sourced is that it is comparing the Empire Builder, a long distance route (which naturally incurs higher running costs) which also runs on leased lines, to the Northeast Corridor, the only Amtrak route where Amtrak actually owns the track itself, and thus doesn't have to pay track rights, and which is also one of the shortest routes, with the highest pop density.

In short, I meant revenue, not profit, and I was only talking about long distance lines.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

Also, someone has miscalculated something here.

THE EMPIRE BUILDER IS ONE OF AMTRAK'S MOST PROFITABLE ROUTES

No it isn't.

Sorry, I meant revenue, not profit.
As of Jan 2019 the Empire Builder is Amtrak's long-distance route with the second largest revenue (also 2nd best ridership and 3rd best on time performance) (Amtrak Performance Report Jan 2019) behind only the California Zephyr. The main problem is the large operating costs, mainly the exorbitant cost of track rights that BNSF imposes on Amtrak.
Key problem with the article you've sourced is that it is comparing the Empire Builder, a long distance route (which naturally incurs higher running costs) which also runs on leased lines, to the Northeast Corridor, the only Amtrak route where Amtrak actually owns the track itself, and thus doesn't have to pay track rights, and which is also one of the shortest routes, with the highest pop density.

In short, I meant revenue, not profit, and I was only talking about long distance lines.

I realize in what ways the NEC is profitable and whatnot. Your big bold statement was inaccurate however. And I find it odd that you're hating on this while defending the Empire Builder. There is no doubt that a routing starting in Seattle and heading through Canada would serve more people, and of using existing lines could give the opportunity to negotiate a lower fee.

THAT LINE ALREADY EXISTS. IT'S JUST ALL IN CANADA.
There is already a very good quality direct line between Vancouver and Toronto. It is far faster and of far better quality than the US lines, gives priority to Passenger over Freight, and serves far more populated areas.
This line serves no one. If I live in Seattle, it is far faster to take the Amtrak Cascades to Vancouver, then the VIA Canadian straight to Toronto, than to take a train through the crowded lines through Montana. And the Canadian route also serves big cities, like Edmonton, Saskatoon and Winnipeg, while the Whitefish line doesn't.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

I would like to inform the Senate, and by extension the House, that the following resolution has passed the Fremont Parliament.

A RESOLUTION

That this chamber voices its opinion on the matter on SB 9010.

Whereas, the Senate is voting on SB 9010: Fulfilling Railway Promises Act.
Whereas, this bill establishes a useless passenger rail connection along a thinly populated route solely to make a stupid meme into reality.
Whereas, this service would strongly impinge on the rights of the governments of both Canada and Fremont to regulate and operate their passenger as they see fit.
Resolved, that this Parliament objects in the strongest possible terms to SB 9010.
Further Resolved, that this Parliament urges the Federal Congress to reject this idiotic legislation.
Further Resolved, that this Parliament urges all Senators and Representatives who reside in this region to vote Nay on this legislation.
Further Resolved, that this Parliament objects to the use of any funds of the Government of Fremont to be used to finance this ridiculous project.
Further Resolved, that the Government of Fremont categorically refuses to spend a single cent on funding this absurd project.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

I am afraid the bill is no longer confined within the chambers of the Senate and thus is no longer within my ability to cancel the vote, which has already been called. The bill now sits on the VP's desk and is awaiting House action and I encourage you to present these concerns in the House.

I would also lament the loss of the Super Special Awesome Fremont Senate Delegation, which seems to have dropped the ball on this matter and could have cast the deciding votes.

I know that this bill has already passed this chamber, Senator. I'm however forced to post here as the House for some unfathomable reason hasn't got around to opening the thread for this bill yet.

[AustralianSwingVoter]

I am afraid the bill is no longer confined within the chambers of the Senate and thus is no longer within my ability to cancel the vote, which has already been called. The bill now sits on the VP's desk and is awaiting House action and I encourage you to present these concerns in the House.

I would also lament the loss of the Super Special Awesome Fremont Senate Delegation, which seems to have dropped the ball on this matter and could have cast the deciding votes.

I know that this bill has already passed this chamber, Senator. I'm however forced to post here as the House for some unfathomable reason hasn't got around to opening the thread for this bill yet.

I think VP Lumine is currently very busy in RL, so that is probably why this or other bills have not been brought in the house. Speaker Ninja is also very busy and on LOA I think

Indeed the VP and the Speaker can be excused, as both are still on or just came back from LOA. But we do have a Deputy Speaker for a reason. To keep the House running if the Speaker is disposed. Yet the Deputy Speaker has taken no action whatsoever to move legislation from the queue to the floor of the House. Indeed, the Deputy Speaker has taken no action whatsoever. Indeed, it seems the Deputy Speaker has totally forgotten that they are the Deputy Speaker.