Racial Identitarianism vs. Gender Identitarianism

[F. Joe Haydn]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

[F. Joe Haydn]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

[F. Joe Haydn]

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

I understand that, but again, identifying with the opposite gender just seems to me to be reinforcing rigid gender roles for no good reason.  I don't see why it should matter if your "gendered" characteristics don't match up with your biological sex, unless you believe in outdated and stereotypical gender roles

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

The idea is that ‘biological sex’ refers to the anatomical distinctions. ‘Gender’ to the mental and societal ones.

And also, why is it “denying one’s anatomy” to accept that their mental state is one not traditionally associated with that anatomy?

I was referring to people who get surgery or take hormones. Since gender dysphoria is a mental rather than physical condition, this seems the wrong approach to me.

There really is no difference. I know this will sound controversial, but I find the idea of being transgender reactionary, as it upholds traditional gender roles. An effeminate man or a masculine woman shouldn't feel pressure to change their gender simply because they don't fit the traditional roles prescribed for them.

The difference of course is that gender stereotypes are much more culturally ingrained, to the point where people are openly rejected if they don’t conform to the expectations for their own biological sex. These expectations are so implicit that they’ve created, in essence, their own identities. These identites. These are “gender”. Those of one biological sex can sometimes identify with the gender not traditionally associated with their biological sex.

This type of ‘second layer’ of expectations does not exist with nearly the same level of explicitness or pervasiveness with race.

Well, then the problem is cultural, not medical. A cultural problem shouldn't be treated medically.

Their is scientific consensus, along with loads of personalized anecdotes of transgendered folks I know, that disprove the notion. They aren’t tomboys or effeminate men, they are hardwired in the brain to be disgusted in their own bodies not matching up with their gender. Acting manly or feminine is how they perceive to be closer to their true gender, while matching that with bodily modifications.

Similar to other feedback loops in the brain, these are just one of these things that could be messed up during fetal development, one that scientists can visually view with CT scans, scans that show areas relating to identity resemble closely to female brains.

Ethnic or cultural identification is more tricky, but as a societal thing requires evidence and consensus. Culturophiles and those with close cultural connections to those they weren’t shown predominantly (weddings, religious conversions, etc.) that I know don’t regard their love and identification with being transracial-or-cultural.

Well, it is clear that in transgender individuals there is a disconnect between mind and body. And since the body is properly functioning, the condition must lie in the mind. Gender dysphoria should therefore be viewed as a psychological condition rather than a medical problem, and should be treated by helping the patient get over what is essentially a delusion.

Furthermore, I view this as more of a philosophical issue than a scientific one. To me, it's scientistic to dismiss hundreds of years of philosophical enquiry on the self simply on the basis of some brain scans. Since according to most philosophies other than perhaps dualism the body is an essential part of one single self, it fundamentally makes no sense to deny one's own anatomy.

All separations of mine and body are mostly inherently due in some way to physical differences and real phenomena changing those variations, and the CT scans prove that. Look at how many mental illnesses like schizophrenia are caused by activity and triggers either in the womb or due to having pre-set bad reactions to drugs.

you believing with your magical faux-gnostic bull poop doesn’t change that, as life is set by what we can observe and what is the most real. The real is with the consistent and emotional reactions by numerous Trans individuals on that they don’t like their bodies and want to match it up with something more agreeable. The treatment for 40+ years is give them hormones and let them identify with what they want, as science and their own personal convictions prove again and again.

Go to the Church of Scientology or Christian Scientists with your reality denialism and try to follow what you preach, you’ll cheat on the side yet still preach, but at least you’ll be outed as a conman.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here, especially with the "faux-gnostic" and Christian part (I am definitely non-religious). I was trying to have a civil conversation about an issue that we disagree on and I don't think I was being out of line at all, so I really don't appreciate being insulted. Also, my views on this issue are definitely not settled and I could very likely be convinced otherwise, so know that I'm not being rigid here.

Considering the atmosphere of this forum, I really should've known that presenting a controversial view like this would've resulted in me being shut down. But quite frankly, I'm still a bit shocked at the insults. As a sidenote, I think you're a good poster and I wouldn't want you to dislike me just because we disagree on one issue, so can't we just agree to disagree?