French 20th Century Survivor: ROUND SIXTY-FOUR

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Pétain

Maréchal, nous voilà... contre toi !

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Pierre Laval -- slimier than Petain, as collaborationists go, and part of the government that screwed the pooch in the first place. (While Petain certainly deserves to go down next, he at least has the excuse that French defeat was inevitable by the time he took charge.)

Laval is a ing bast*rd, granted.
But Pétain used his glorious past to lead French people towards the path of Collaboration. He chose it and decided it, even without Laval's influence.

Laval did it more from an international viewpoint and analysis: Germany had won.
Pétain did it with more internal motives: to put an end to the Republic. It may be worse.

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Laval

He made sure that Jews from his village of Châteldon hadn't been deported... whereas he lended all the French police to help realize the "rafles" and get rid of Jews:
until the end, he was a"negotiator" even with human lives, just for his own little political interest. Really frightening.

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Laval was quite a fascinating person. He didn't deserve to die, but he doesn't deserve to stay on here.

Nobody ever deserved to die. But I don't understand what you could find "fascinating" in this disgusting fawning b*stard, responsible of the death of thousands of people....

Maybe his political career ? I try to guess.

Somewhere between a typical Radical from 3rd Republic and leftists-turned-fascists Déat and Doriot.

And so, a far more dangerous guy than weak Daladier, Chautemps, etc and than stupid collaborationists who wouldn't have been so harmful if Pétain and Laval hadn't let them act and hadn't used them.

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Sorry Hash, but I'll do Darlan first.

He was a real collaborationist: in 1941, he pleased Germans more than Laval before Dec 1940.
He negotiated and signed the agreements that ruled the entire occupation and collaboration regimes.

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If there is one Vichyist/Collabo in government, it's not Besson, it's Hortefeux. He's pretty much an avowed racist and would have been the first to join on the "travail, famille, patrie" bandwagon in June 1940.

Precisely : Hortefeux would be the ideologue ( Pétain ), and Besson would be the swindling ( Laval ).

Houlà...
A very complex debate.

I agree Pétain was full of ideology. Some extreme collaborationists as well.
But MOST of Vichysts were either "sincere" (they really thought war was the most awful thing on earth, because of WWI, which changed French minds A LOT), or opportunistic, or coward, spineless.

So, Hortefeux may of course have been on the wrong side, but more by being opportunistic (Estrosi even more), like Mitterrand.
Bertrand, but also guys like Bayrou, Bartolone, Hollande, may have been spineless and on the wrong side too, whatever their ideas today.

Anyway, Vichy would have been a good test for anyone's personality, but don't forget we can't judge everyone: how would we have done if our families or persons whom we love would have been threatened ?

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Darlan again, of course.

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After this Vichy cleansing, it will really be interesting to see if the forum go after dumb ones from 3rd and 4th republics (I mean, leaders who weren't leaders), aim at colonialists or turn to modern ones because of partial knowledge of the past.

I'll try to vote early, but not sure.

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Next round, I'll try to have a "spicier" vote, but I agree Chautemps deserves to go.

So, Camille Chautemps.

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Gosh, Hash's choice is accurate.

Bouisson is the quintessential inter-WW compromise guy, almost a simple caretaker. He was speaker of the Chambre des Députés during a very long period. He has done nothing noticeable. And he voted full powers to Pétain in 1940.

I vote for Bouisson.

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Hash is really a "great voter" in his own survivor...

But, well, I vote for Georges Bidault.

A senior member of Resistance, BUT so "Algérie Française" that he became a seditious and exiled man.
And not a very effective head of government.

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Bidault

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Bidault too

Former resistance leader turner "Algerie Francaise" fanatic, sad thing

Of course, being a resistant is good and all that, but I hate the idea that being in the resistance makes one the 8th wonder of the world and an automatic candidate for Sainthood.

Many communists were resistants only when they were ordered to.
Many nationalists were just arch-nationalists, arch-patriots and they resisted against Germans, not against Nazis.
Some lonesome men, some "Rambos", some sick-in-their-head or even some criminals just found a way to become heroes or to have fun or to erase their past.
And you've got even former pétainists and vichysts, like Mitterrand.

It remains that you had to be courageous enough to fight as they fought and in the way they fought.

But, sure, all weren't ipso facto heroes !

I have often wondered whether I would have resisted: I would say "yes" (too bad to see coward civil servants around you, ready to do anything they are ordered to and so, why not deporting Jews ?) until I was married and had children, "no" after that unless my family would have been killed or jailed.

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Bidault too

Former resistance leader turner "Algerie Francaise" fanatic, sad thing

Of course, being a resistant is good and all that, but I hate the idea that being in the resistance makes one the 8th wonder of the world and an automatic candidate for Sainthood.

I never claimed such thing

Never said you did, either. I'm just noting something that annoys me in general.

Well, that article I sent you a while ago postulated that under the Fifth Republic, service in the Resistance susbtituted for parliamentary experience.

Not exactly.
After the war and throughout the begininng years of the Fifth Republic, there was a sort of Gaullist-Communist agreement on history of WW2: Vichy hasn't existed, Communists were all resistants and from the beginning, real resistants were FFL and Communists.
So, there was no great room for old resistants from the "interior"...

And, apart from UDSR, many 4th Republic (and 5th Republic) parties weren't led mainly by resistants: SFIO, Independents and mainstream right, Radicals, etc... MRP was "better" in that sense.

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Daladier

I may continue in this vein for quite some time...

Daladier is an interesting figure.
Of course, this is Munich. But he is said to have whispered, on the airport back to France, acclaimed by a big pacifist and naive crowd, "Les cons !"
But there is no evidence. Maybe himself rewriting history.
After that, he hastened French rearmament.
Anyway, sure, he was a typical radical one, but not the worst.

I vote for François-Marsal, not only a short caretaker, but a colonialist and representative of this business right that was wrong on economic matters between the WWs.

The François-Marsal government was appointed by a decree dated June, 9th. Next government (Herriot) was appointed by a decree dated June, 14th.

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Sarrien, also a caretaker, and not a fine career besides being head of government (Steeg wasn't bad when he wasn't head of government).

Sarrien, "l'homme à la tête de veau".
Clemenceau has said of him: Sarrien, "ça...rien" (= that...nothing).

Clemenceau was Interior ministry (Home, police, cults) in his government because, when in Sarrien's office before the portfolios distribution, he answered "Interior" when Sarrien asked "what do you take ?".
In fact, Sarrien wanted to know which drink he wanted to take...

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OK, Steeg,
better to dump those "small" ones now than to have them at the end and to realize "OMG why are they still here ?!"

But it would be fine to alternate, between caretakers, lightweights and some fine fights throughout the decades.
I intend to make a "bigger" vote next round !

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Oh, you've guessed it !
That was the "bigger" vote I wanted to make.

Mollet !

He betrayed Mendès, he was the old SFIO man, he was harsh and stupid in Algeria, etc
A long list...

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I go back to a small one: Monis.

Alcohol seller, he wasn't very brilliant and he occupied Fez, in Morocco in 1911.

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Millerand

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Edith Cresson.

Well, the only woman of the list, but she was a complete failure.

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I vote for Queuille.

"Le bon docteur Queuille", the quintessential 4th Republic politician.

Powerless but unremovable. Not an evil man, but avoiding everything difficult, every important choice or decision.

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Oh, and don't forget to vote in Kalwejt's Brazilian presidential survivor. The current round may be surprising

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Queuille

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I know, Debré was a bit mad and Algérie Française. But, well, you know, difficult for me to eliminate our Constitution writer, whatever the failures in it...
And, it's so horrible for me to see it written without an accent... Shocking !
Some archtypical politicians of the 3rd and 4th Republics still there...
Oh, well, I guess his time has come... or

The old satiric newspaper "Le Canard Enchaîné" used to draw him with a funnel on his head ! Not bad, especially when he was candidate in 1981: a LOLz campaign and a LOL result.