Which of these "covid view camps" do you fall into?

[Calthrina950]

Somewhere between #4 and #5, although I'm leaning more so towards #5. As regards to the political parties, the Democrats and public health officials seem to fall largely into Camp #3, while the Republicans are primarily in Camp #5.

[Calthrina950]

Camp 4. Widespread mask and vaccine mandates are unpopular and we’re never going to get enough people to get the vaccine so that herd immunity is achieved. Amid the already long list of vaccines, COVID will probably still be required for military service. Those who work in assisted living facilities and certain medical settings should also be required to get the vaccine every year and wear masks during flu season as they are in close contact with those most at risk of dying from the disease. But for most Americans, including many of those who work for the federal government or as contractors, vaccines and masks should not be mandated. Instead, the pre-existing campaign by the CDC to get people vaccinated with the flu shot during flu-season should be expanded upon to include COVID and receive more funding. In regards to education, schools  will have to return to normal, but at-risk teachers should receive an extended number of sick days during COVID season and students who live with at-risk individuals should similarly receive remote-learning exemptions if requested by their parents/guardians.

All of these measures, I think, are pretty reasonable in a post-peak-pandemic America. I’m really tired of those on the extreme ends arguing that we need to have a full lockdown or no restrictions at all.

I pretty much agree with this. Despite my recent antipathy for mask mandates, I'm not saying that we shouldn't take any precautions at all. Some basic common-sense measures should be implemented, but we should not be implementing widespread mandates and there should be an effort to return individual work and school lives to normalcy, as much as can be obtained.

[Calthrina950]

Somewhere between 3 and 4. I don't support government mandates for masks or vaccines, but I strongly support businesses who require masks or proof of vaccination to enter. While it's true that vaccinated people are far less likely to be hospitalized or die of Covid than the unvaccinated, the new strains are still infecting vaccinated people and may be causing long Covid, which we don't have nearly enough data on to truly understand. I don't support remote work or closing schools the way we did in 2020, but more consideration needs to be given to the fact that Omicron is highly transmissible and children are not getting vaccinated at high enough rates to quell some of the fears that schools will become superspreading hotspots. So I don't really know how to tackle the issue of schools--all the options seem to be less than ideal.

Miscellaneous pandemic notes:

I'm fully on board with using social pressure to shame those who can be vaccinated and choose not to be. Now that Biden's vaccine mandate has been largely struck down, the official policy position is that everyone has a right to choose what to do with their body. However, the "free marketplace of ideas" gives me the right to call you a f[inks]ing asshat if you aren't getting vaccinated because Alex Jones told you there's a microchip in them.

I also think all public figures spreading misinformation should be required to reveal their vaccination status. Tucker Carlson should tell his viewers that he is vaccinated.

Also, I'm tired of Dr. Fauci. He should retire and someone else should take his place as chief Covid mouthpiece for this administration. The country is clearly tired of him (except for the resistance libs who have tattoos of bandaids that say "Fauci Ouchie" on them or whatever) and continuing to wheel him out to bicker with Rand Paul is just sad at this point, even if he is obviously correct.

This is certainly true, given that views on Fauci are close to 50/50 at this point, and are deeply polarized along partisan lines.

[Calthrina950]

Somewhere between #4 and #5, although I'm leaning more so towards #5. As regards to the political parties, the Democrats and public health officials seem to fall largely into Camp #3, while the Republicans are primarily in Camp #5.

I would argue that most Republican politicians (except for the loonies like MTG) are actually in Camp 4, but want people in Camp 5 to think they're with them.

Why so? Most Republicans support vaccines, but they are of the opinion that "everyone should make the choices that are best for them" or that "no one should be forced to get vaccinated." Moreover, most are tired of masks, believe that there is too much hysteria, and want to return to normalcy.

[Calthrina950]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

What is the ideal position in your view? Camp 3?

[Calthrina950]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

[Calthrina950]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

For me, the efficacy of mask mandates is truly questionable at this point, given that they've done nothing to stem the rise in cases and hospitalizations we've seen. They are punitive, in the sense of being applied to fully vaccinated people, they sow doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine, and they generate damaging psychological effects, particularly for schoolchildren. And given that we have a greater variety of coronavirus treatments and therapies, with more on the way, why should we continue to impose restrictions that are of little value?

[Calthrina950]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

For me, the efficacy of mask mandates is truly questionable at this point, given that they've done nothing to stem the rise in cases and hospitalizations we've seen. They are punitive, in the sense of being applied to fully vaccinated people, they sow doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine, and they generate damaging psychological effects, particularly for schoolchildren. And given that we have a greater variety of coronavirus treatments and therapies, with more on the way, why should we continue to impose restrictions that are of little value?

I mean. Are they even being enforced currently? Because it's a bit hard to judge what's been effective and what hasn't when much of the country has had no restrictions at all.

But if it turns out they're not effective, okay, that's fair enough, but the rest strikes me as rationalization honestly.

Also like... sure, I'm against mask mandates for young children too, but how are masks psychologically damaging for adults?

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

[Calthrina950]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

[Calthrina950]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

You're accusing me of a logical fallacy? I've said before that I've been subjected to such accusations in the past. But never mind. I could provide statistics, articles, about this entire situation. Even if I did so, you would dismiss them. That's why I've come to the viewpoint that most people, once they've established their viewpoints about something, cannot be swayed, and they are going to double down on them.

I'm not interested in arguing with you any further over this, so I'm not going to say anything more about this.

[Calthrina950]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

You're accusing me of a logical fallacy? I've said before that I've been subjected to such accusations in the past. But never mind. I could provide statistics, articles, about this entire situation. Even if I did so, you would dismiss them. That's why I've come to the viewpoint that most people, once they've established their viewpoints about something, cannot be swayed, and they are going to double down on them.

I'm not interested in arguing with you any further over this, so I'm not going to say anything more about this.

Highlighted for your convenience.

But yeah, I certainly agree this discussion was pointless. Have fun I guess.

You've reminded me of why we couldn't get along before I went on my hiatus. Multiple people have reminded me of that in recent times. That seems to prove to me that some people's opinions of you never change, no matter how much you try.

[Calthrina950]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

There just seems like there are no ends to these measures and haven't been able to travel to visit family in india for 3 years., i've been having fully online zoom university for the last 2 years despite living in a country that is 95% vaccinated.

There just seems like the current restrictions are idenfinite and a lot of covid hawks don't seem to care about that. Also your idea of a permenant mask mandate is just tyrannical and silly, are we never going to be able to return to pre-pandemic life, sacrifice the entirety of my youth  and possibly the rest of my life for this.

The recent push for N95 masks is the reason why I believe that we may be headed for rolling or permanent mask mandates. I've said before that far too many people on here seem to have no issue with adjusting to changes of that nature, and view them as "necessary" sacrifices for the betterment of society. Antonio V is one of those posters. There is no doubt that the coronavirus pandemic has wrought much tragedy and has caused a considerable number of deaths, but there is also no doubt that we have to accept this virus as endemic and move on.

[Calthrina950]

I find it interesting that only 8% of this forum actually supports options 1-2, but Republicans constantly act like that's what the entire Democratic Party supports.

The Biden administration is in camp 3, and most Democrats are split between camps 3/4 while most Republicans are split between camps 4/5.  We're really not that far apart according to the poll.

The problem is that camp 5 should actually be split between two camps -- camp 5 and camp 6, where camp 6 is camp 5 but you also believe the vaccine is a brain chip, COVID can be cured by drinking piss and eating horse dewormer, Dr. Fauci is an international supercriminal who should be executed, and Biden is the ringleader of a vast conspiracy to use COVID to create the New World Order.  About 30% of the Republican Party is in this camp, and Joe Rogan constantly brings them on his show to promote this viewpoint while he nods along in agreement.  There's not really any equivalent to this on the Democratic side.  And this is what's causing so much societal chaos.

I mean this forum is far more anti-lockdown than other parts of the internet. The majority of Twitter and Reddit feel like they're still in 2020 mode, for example.

That's right, although there is one reddit "community" or "forum", LockdownSkepticism, which is anti-restriction and anti-mandate. I can't remember who it was on here who first mentioned it (I think it was Bandit?), but I've been following that feed for well over a year now.