The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

Truthfully, I always wondered why so called 'progessives' believed in the transferrence of wealth from low income private sector consumers to upper income state pensioners.

We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for.

I remember when Reagan freed the air traffic controllers from their bondage.  

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

From the AP (Happy, Lunar?  )

Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote.

CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

From the AP (Happy, Lunar?   )

Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote.

CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up

Much as I find quorum denial to be an underhanded tactic, how can it be legal to have the police drag legislators to the legislature and force them to vote?

Call of the House isn't something unheard of, but you probably  haven't heard of it since it's rarely taken to this level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_the_house

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I agree with the cuts but destroying collective bargaining is going to far. That's just to destroy a political enemy, which is fine, but they should be upfront about it.

I don't see them as hiding their intentions at all.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w
hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing w
hen the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

So according to Republican ideology public workers are acceptable members of society only if they are paid the minimum wage, otherwise they are the scum of the earth and the root of all evil.

OK.

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?  Greek socialism is tried and prove (to suck)

Don't shoot the messenger.

Dude, you have no message.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Excessive hyperbole and distort much?

Not particularly; it's the logical end point of a lot of right-wing rhetoric (and, to be fair, theory) regarding public sector workers. Of course most people shy away from taking that kind of thing to its logical conclusion.

Torie doesn't espouse such rhetoric or theory....I'm hard pressed to find a pub here who does. I suppose you can find far right whackos who believe it, but it doesn't add to a productive back and forth with Torie.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If that is the case, than my level of self awareness still needs some work.

Me too........

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

Is there really argument on that, Sbane.  Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well.  

I found a website where teachers discuss this issue, sbane

http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=12169

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

Is there really argument on that, Sbane.  Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well.  

I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling....

And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off.

I'm not looking to privatize, honestly.  The transition would be disasterous.

I may differ from others, but the salaries don't bother me too much, but legacy costs have to be reduced and it as to be easier to get rid of the bums.......that applies to all unions.....and in fact all business.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

Is there really argument on that, Sbane.  Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well.  

I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling....

And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off.

I'm not looking to privatize, honestly.  The transition would be disasterous.

I may differ from others, but the salaries don't bother me too much, but legacy costs have to be reduced and it as to be easier to get rid of the bums.......that applies to all unions.....and in fact all business.

Salaries are certainly not the problem, the bums who are protected from being fired are. I knew a teacher who had been teaching at my school for 30 years, probably making close to 100k, and the class she taught was basic computer skills (which most high schoolers know by elementary school these days). On the flip side I had an AP chemistry teacher who just finished her PhD and had taught at the school for only a year. I doubt she made more than 40-50k. Perhaps the district supplemented some of her income since we are a wealthy district, but that can't happen in most schools.

It appears we don't disagree much.......like I said, hey I wouldn't be teacher regardless of salary, but the legacy costs are not sustainable, period. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Seven Green Bay Packers come down on the side of the unions.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php

Hey maybe they can pitch in to help the budget deficit and end this nonsense!  

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Nice to see the DNC stay involed

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Nice to see the DNC stay involed

This is the first battle of the 2012 election.

Good point

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Or the delay will end up passing the anti union thing separately. Is there any rush with this? Why can't the Pubbies just go about their business for months while the Dems get to know much better the lay of the land in suburban Chicago?  Another pressure point is that Walker could start firing people without a budget.

In other words they hold the all the cards?  Yeah, they do.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Not that it's particularly relevant to this conversation, but who is funding their road trip?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Got my layoff notice today.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway.  I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Most likely open meeting provisions, b33, but the pubs knew that anyway....the drama of doing it like they did served their purpose, but as you note....they'll just pass it again anyway.  I bet some of the pubs view the extra drama it as good news, in spite of any potential recall petitions.

Huh? Being in the news about breaking the rules while passing an unpopular bill is somehow beneficial for Republicans? I doubt even Walker himself wouldn't spin it like that.

The pubs knew exactly what was going to happen by doing this in the middle of the night.....so why did they do it if all it could do was hurt them?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Meritorious, TG, but will it stop the law from taking effect or being overturned?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Meritorious, TG, but will it stop the law from taking effect or being overturned?

If Kloppenburg wins it changes the court from 4 conservatives and 3 progressives to the other way around and what that may mean to a ruling on the law.

I'm glad you realized it wasn't a rhetorical question......thanks for the info!