Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[ag]

In that case better write what you think. If there is one word it is never sensible to abuse in the modern world it is racism.

I am not abusing the word. I am using it properly - but, of course, it is a rather inadequate mild synonym for what, in my view, happens to be the case.

I notice, you lost no time reporting me for trolling. Unfortunately, if I said what I think, you would have been reporting me for a personal attack.

[ag]

I have never spoken about "collective guilt": a concept, that is totally abhorrent to me. What I do not like is individual confidence that "this can never happen to me".

Anyway, do not let my sniping interfere. Please, do something to elevate the quality of the conversation: I am all eyes and ears.

[ag]

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.

I will remind you of this comment when Russians invade.

[ag]

Why do Saudi-Arabia, UAE or Iran not take in asylum seekers from Iraq and Syria? Why should it be Europe's responsibility to settle them?

Why do people who tout the superiority of "Western values" and the institutions of liberal democracy want migrants to take refuge within the borders of authoritarian regimes?

They are countries which have a culture much closer to the culture of the Syrians and Iraqis, thereby making it easier for them to integrate (Shias to Iran, Sunnis to the other Gulf countries).

Authoritarian regimes are what they are used to. By moving from one authoritarian state to another, they will avoid experiencing a culture shock.

I will remind you of this comment when Russians invade.

I am a military reservist. If Russia were to attack, I would fight for my country, not flee to other countries.

Alas, the old Marshall is dead. You might not have an equal command next time.

[ag]

But of course, beware the browns right? No matter where they are?

However much you guys like to make this about race it is not the colour of their skin that is the problem, and it is not as simple as "lets just help those in need". Refugee situations can often be boiled down to this, but this one can't. And there have been several attempts to explain why. Ignoring them and just posting a moral reprimand is pointless.

just to be clear: I do not care in the least if it is about color of the skin or "culture". As far as I am concerned, the two approaches are morally and practically indistinguishable. The only distinction that matters, is the one between cannibals, and non non-cannibals. And, unfortunately, we have far too many cannibals in this thread.

[ag]

Some of you people are disgusting. 

The disgust is mutual.

[ag]

Insightful point! Ashkenazi Jews from Byelorussia had no experience with democracy. Naturally, when they fled the pogroms, they came to the shores of New York City and started weeping, asking themselves "what is democracy? i can't comprehend this," before establishing the monarchy of New York Oblast.

People implicitly claiming that Ashkenazi Jews who fled the pogroms more than a century ago had just the same culture as Syrian Sunni Muslims now

The implicit claim is only in your mind: and says more about you, than about anything else.

Anyway, I am very happy that you managed to acquire the proper Aryan culture. I am sure you will look spiffy in that Unterhauptfuhrer uniform when on Einsatzkommando duty in the East.

[ag]

Plans to divide up those fleeing amongst EU member states won’t matter, because they will just leave to go to whatever country they want to go if they can cross the borders. That might be why it's difficult to agree.

That is only true if the current integration system keeps being the norm. If we see a continued wave there will be a pressure towards establishing more permanent refugee camps to deter economic migrants and to keep up a realistic possibility of repatriation if conflicts end. In this case there will be pressure to establish them in countries with lower costs - and that would primarily be in Eastern Europe.

It all depends on whether the "asylum seeker - refugee status - integration - possibility of acquiring citizenship" chain will be upheld - and I doubt that.

I agree the country hopping is a major factor in delegitimizing refugees in the eyes of the general European public. It is too calculated and organized and collides with our mental image of a "real refugee". I have tried earlier in the thread to describe the switch from the classical political refugee with a (comparatively) "elite" background to the modern version of a 1890s Eastern or Southern European "flight to America"  to escape a combination of poverty, war and oppression, but you may have more luck to integrate this aspect in the discussion - it tends to be ignored, but is important. Our concept of what a refugee is is simply dated and that forces us to rethink the whole international refugee system.

Ideally we need resettlement areas and they are not likely to be found in densely populated Europe. We need internationally to negotiate about whether some countries would be willing to resettle refugees, build new towns for them etc. if the rich countries paid for it and gave trade concessions etc. Separate hosting and payment is an important key to opening this up.

At this point, I do not even have to comment. I simply call on everybody here to carefully read what  our Danish friend wrote and make their own conclusions. Saying more would be a personal attack, and I have been reported far too many times recently.

[ag]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't see any mention in this thread as to how Merkel and Germany have been taking the lead in welcoming refugees, and (after some hemming and hawing) being willing to frame it as the moral issue that it is.

I've had harsh words for Merkel and Germany in the past, so I just want to go on record saying that credit where it's due, and I take back many of those harsh words.  

I have always liked Angela Merkel. These days I increasingly admire her.

[ag]

The Austrian football team today:

Respect.

[ag]

The forum will never be the same after this thread.

I am afraid so. Very difficult to talk banalities with people you despise so much.

[ag]

The forum will never be the same after this thread.

I am afraid so. Very difficult to talk banalities with people you despise so much.

Yeah, I have often wondered why you stick around.

I am no longer talking banalities.

[ag]

My god, has this place always been crawling with neo nazis and racists?! Old Atlas really has gone down the tubes it seems.

Labeling isn't helpful either, I think it's legitimate European people have some concern regarding a large torrent of immigration and being wary about its impacts does not make racist by any means. It's not really a black and white situation and naming is far from helpful in conducting a reasonable debate

And this is what we are getting from the Israeli left.

[ag]

My god, has this place always been crawling with neo nazis and racists?! Old Atlas really has gone down the tubes it seems.

Labeling isn't helpful either, I think it's legitimate European people have some concern regarding a large torrent of immigration and being wary about its impacts does not make racist by any means. It's not really a black and white situation and naming is far from helpful in conducting a reasonable debate

And this is what we are getting from the Israeli left.

p.s if I recall properly you're Libertarian pardon me if I take you moral high ground on what is 'left wing view' with a grain of salt

You do not recall properly. I am a liberal, not a libertarian. And, of course, I have told you previously, that i Israel I would have been forced to - albeit rather unhapilly - support Hadash.

[ag]

Guys, lay off ag, after all he's working overtime to make the world safe for neoliberalism!

Actually, I am pretty certain, I will be the indirect cause of a few proper revolutions over the next 50 years

[ag]

I used to be naive and think that the EU could be reformed: that it could somehow still return to the days of being a loose coalition centred around free-trade. Now I see that I was mistaken. There are only two possible future scenarios for the EU: a) it becomes a centralised super-state, or b) it is dissolved entirely. I hope for the latter scenario, but the first one is the more likely.

I guess, you are still dreaming of being a Russian satelite.

[ag]

So now the German government says it can accept 500,000 per year for several years.  I wonder how this will be received, and whether this step toward ethnic, cultural transformation of Germany will be supported by Germans.  Would love to see an actual Swiss style referendum on the issue.

Does Merkel want a civil war? Because this how you spark a civil war.

As well as a plague of locusts and an acne epidemic among the pythons in a Frankfurt Zoo.

[ag]

These days, I am thinking a lot of a boy called Motl...

[ag]

An Arab translator at Vienna train station recently estimated that 25-50% of the migrants arriving there "have no Syrian Arab dialect". He also spoke about a guy from Egypt who said that "now is the chance of his lifetime to sneak into Europe, using fake Syrian passports."

Oh man, try to defend that you naive leftists ...

Wouldn't they be found eventually and deported? I see no reason people from Egypt\Pakistan\any country not in war should be regarded as refugees

Deporting people against their will is not easy (in a democracy). There are many ways to resist and delay this. And it also depends on whether the home country will accept them.

Of course, people whose home country would not accept them are not refugees.

Well, you can follow an Australian Supreme Court ruling and hold them imprisoned until some country accepts them. That way, most certainly, they will qualify as refugees - from you.

I have been deliberately staying off this thread for days. I must say, in my absense the quality of the discussion has reached new heights.

[ag]

The Austrian broadcaster ORF today said in their main evening news show that more than 80% of Hungarians (!) backed the tough new isolationist policies of the Orban government on the border.

Yet another central European country that wasn't properly de-Nazified (de-Horthyfied?). Very sad.

Now this is too much. Four decades under communist rule and 1956 wasn't enough for you?

The Soviets did not do proper denazification. They screwed them up - certainly, true. But ideologically they were far too close to being Nazis themselves.

[ag]

The Austrian broadcaster ORF today said in their main evening news show that more than 80% of Hungarians (!) backed the tough new isolationist policies of the Orban government on the border.

Yet another central European country that wasn't properly de-Nazified (de-Horthyfied?). Very sad.

Now this is too much. Four decades under communist rule and 1956 wasn't enough for you?

The Soviets did not do proper denazification. They screwed them up - certainly, true. But ideologically they were far too close to being Nazis themselves.

I would begin angrily flapping my arms at this if I did not know you better. In lieu of that, might I ask in what ways were Soviet denazification efforts in the Eastern Bloc insufficient?

That is, actually, very easy. The Soviets never, really, explained, what was it that was wrong about the Nazis. In the internal Soviet discourse the Nazis were bad because they attacked the Soviets: - a point which might, arguably, be lost on the Hungarians - and I do not blame them, actually. The Soviets could not properly denazify because doing that would be... anti-Soviet. You would have to explain why the Nazis were evil - but on most of those counts they were not substantially different from the Soviets. Hungarians were pretty much told that what the Nazis did wrong was to start and lose a war, and that their own leaders were wrong in betting on a wrong horse. That the victors' justice was heavy-handed was no denazification, but simple revenge.

In a certain sense, the Berlin Airlift was, by itself, a much more efficient denazificaiton measure than anything the Soviets would dare to do.

Unfortunately, commenting on the rest of your post, according to some participants of these boards, would mean trolling. So, I am forced to hold off, while thinking of that boy Motl, son of a cantor in Kasrilovke.

[ag]

I think we're both fairly reasonable people. I'd be disappointed if you didn't offer your thoughts-- provided you aren't trying to insinuate that refugee camps are comparable to ghettoes.

Refugee camps may very well be a temporary logistical necessity. Their implementation in Hungary, from what I have heard so far, has been a disgrace - by design I am afraid. Though, of course, there are many wonderful Hungarian volunteers who have been trying to do something about it.

The reason I would prefer not to say much more in this thread (or, for that matter, on this board) is that, unfortunately, at this point I cannot stand far too many of the other posters here. Our worldview is too far apart. They read different books as children, I am afraid. I read about Motele and his family - and they did not.

[ag]

Since I no longer can bear this conversation, I will let Motele talk do the talking:

"I can´t tell you how long we ran. The forest was already behind us. Dawn was breaking. We were sweating like mad, even though a cool breeze was blowing. We came to a street. Another street. A white church. Gardens. Yards. Little houses.

A Jew was coming towards us, driving a goat. He had the longest earlocks I've ever seen, a long tatty gabardine and a long shawl around his neck. We stopped to say hello. He stared at us. Pinye struck up a conversation. The Jew had a strange way of talking. I mean, he talked our language but he did not talk it like we do. Pinye asked, if we were near the border. 'What border?' the Jew asked. It seems, the border was far behind us.

'In that case, why are we running like lunatics?'"

[ag]

I apologize for responding to the Dutch gentleman. There are certain things that are so far beyond the pale, they should not be responded to. The gross disrespect shown to one's own ancestors is one of those. I got provoked - still, I should have held myself from responding.

[ag]

I really don't know what's happened with Merkel these past few weeks.

I conjecture she is simply a decent human being.