Israel General Election Thread: March 17 2015

[ag]

You dodge the point. That by your own definition, they are Jewish.

By the way, are the Ethiopians Jewish, because they are also a minority in Israel? I need to figure out exactly how much of a SJW you are.

Some of them are, and some of the are not. Naturally, the most Jewish of them are the Christians.

[ag]

You would read about a democratic state, with a Jewish majority and an Arab minority, that has a long record of treating all of its citizens as equal under the law (though it is defined as a state for the majority, as many states are), which is particularly impressive when you consider the atrocious records of its neighbors. You would also read about a state that has been attacked, for the identity ("race", if you will) of its people, time and time again, and then been blamed for defending itself -- the way, for instance, a child who finally snaps and breaks the schoolyard bully's arm will be suspended, not the bully.

Many thinks look good on Wikipedia, I know.

[ag]

Those between you and proper Israeli nationalists? I must confess I can't imagine the two of you plotted on the same line, so I don't know what comes between you.

Well, I have no problem with Israeli-born guys, who love their country, find it self-sufficient, identify with their native Hebrew - and do not want to bother about the Russians, etc. As long as they consider the Zionist project done with and would view me (if I were to come to Israel) as no different from a Thai migrant (as long, of coruse, they do not mind the Thai migrants), I am fine with them. In other words, I what I object to is Israel being called a Jewish state - because I object to the pretence Jews need a state. I do not mind Israeli Jews having their state, though.

[ag]

So you are saying that the Zionist left is Jewish. And that also the Ethiopians are Jewish? Does this extend to the Russian Jews also?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For that matter, it used to extend to Tutsis in Rwanda, you know.

[ag]

I like this conversation: it has acquired the right shade of insanity, without which talking about Jewishness is impossible.

[ag]

Supporting human rights is incompatible with opposing the notion of people getting a homeland in which they are free from ispravniks, prejudice, and dictatorship, and supporting that these things be torn down.

But that has exactly nothing to do with Zionism, does it?

[ag]

Ag, is "Jew" a synonym for "minority", or is there something more to it? I'm confused.

It is not enough to BE a member of a minority. One has to FEEL a minority to be Jewish. Самое важное - знать, что ни в синоде, ни в сенате тебе места нет.

[ag]

Would you rather they betrayed the ancestors who worked so hard to establish the Zionist movement in Europe, move it to the Middle East, and triumph, and have remained for all time under the rule of the ispravniks?

My ancestors did not. By then we have diverged. Though, I guess, one of my great grand fathers (or, may be, a generation further) - did go to Palestine, but quickly came back.

[ag]

Do you not think the Jews around the world are speaking in good faith?

Of course they are speaking in good faith. And always saying different things.

[ag]

Comrade Khenin, is, obviously, Jewish.

I agree with this, though perhaps not for the same reason as you.

Wrong reasoning sometimes gives the right answer. Just try calculating 16/64 by canceling the sixes

[ag]

Read elsewhere, so long as it is not a biased news source.

Well, that would, probably, exclude any text you would like

[ag]

Question: You are opposed to a Jewish state, a Jewish state in Holy Land (like the Montreal Hasidics) or just opposed to religion-based states?

Great question.

1. I think the original Zionist idea was harebrained. If some Jews wanted to be a part of a majority they always could assimilate. What made the Jewish community unique was precisely its perseverence in the Diaspora. The Zionists despised what really made Jews Jewish in my eyes, so they get no sympathy from me.

2. Now, that was then. Right now we have a fact of the existence of the State of Israel. I do not oppose the State of Israel any more than I would oppose the State of Papua New Guinea. What I oppose is the pretensions of - some - of that state's representatives to speak in the name of the Jews in general. They have no more right to speak in my name than - nor do I have any more to do with them than with - Papua New Guinea.

3. I do not particularly like religion-based (or, for that matter, nation-based) states, but I realize they exist and will exist for a long time to come. Do not have any problem with that, really. As long as they do not try to imply that I somehow should have any sort of allegiance to them.

[ag]

Well, I have no problem with Israeli-born guys, who love their country, find it self-sufficient, identify with their native Hebrew - and do not want to bother about the Russians, etc. As long as they consider the Zionist project done with and would view me (if I were to come to Israel) as no different from a Thai migrant (as long, of coruse, they do not mind the Thai migrants), I am fine with them. In other words, I what I object to is Israel being called a Jewish state - because I object to the pretence Jews need a state. I do not mind Israeli Jews having their state, though.

As long as they do not care about me any more than they care about my nauatl-speakign compatriots, I do not mind.

[ag]

Were Hutus Jews prior to Tutsis being Jews? Do any Jews live in Rwanda today?

Yes of course. Probably - do not know enough. Kwa, certainly, are.

[ag]

Read again, more closely. I defined Zionism for you.

And Communism, of course, is merely love for thy neighbor. If you agree with that definition, I agree with your definition of Zionism.

[ag]

On that note, are American Jews Jewish? They are a minority, true, but not in any particular way a persecuted one.

Those of them who do not scream when they hear words "Judeo-Christian" aren't.

[ag]

Конечно. Есть синагога и кнессет, куда мы приглашены.

До меня приглашение не дошло.

[ag]

So, your issue with Israel is than they act like if they are the voice of the Jewish people?

Well, that is what concerns me, I guess.

[ag]

But the question is whether you think, all of a sudden, they will all change their minds.

Knowing our fellow-tribesemen, this can be pretty much guaranteed.

[ag]

So long as your Nahuatl speaking companions aren't persecuting you, I don't see why they should care that much about you either. As was noted, this has not always been the case, unfortunately. And in this case, care is perfectly justifiable.

But what if my nahuatl-speaking compatriots are persecuted? Is persecution a Jewish monopoly?

[ag]

Ah, but this was not always an option. And even if it became an option at some point, doesn't mean it would stay that way.

True. But achieving assimilation was a lot easier - and a lot less ethically problematic - then achieving a Jewish state.

But, in any case, that is a debate that stopped in 1947. At this point it is entirely irrelevant.

[ag]

No Jew at that time would've said that what made Jews unique was their status as a minority -- it was their unique traditions and values, which they were trying (successfully) to protect.

Which traditions and values? The Yiddish and other Diaspora traditions that Zionists despised? Or the religious traditions that the founders of the state did not care about a yota?

[ag]

Why, communism is the seizure of private property, forced collectivization, shortages, and limitations imposed on internal movement, speech, and the practice of religion. We are speaking of what the two movements have actually done.

Or claimed to have done? Because in one case you use one definition, and in another - the other.

[ag]

How many Jews in the world do you think are Jewish? (If you can understand the question.)

Anywhere between 1 person and 7 bln. Depends on the circumstances.

[ag]

То что от приглашения отказался (как и моя семья), не означает что оно не дошло (и считать что не должно ни до кого не дойти, когда сам получил, довольно эгоистично).  

Приглашали, увы, домой не к себе. Отослав, предварительно, хозяев на конюшню. Чем уж они так от коммунистов отличались?